Omnimaga
Calculator Community => OTcalc => Discontinued => Major Community Projects => [OTcalc] Z80-Hardware => Topic started by: matthias1992 on August 07, 2010, 06:34:57 am
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I suggest we discuss here about the best hardware for the eZ80 version. Well, the processor is already pretty much decided isn't it?
- Processor: eZ80
- RAM: ?
- (Flash)ROM: ?
- LCD: ?
- LCD Driver: ?
- Keypad (view details below): ?
- Linkport (view details below): ?
(S)(D)RAM details: how much ram, how fast/slow read write cycle and which manafacturer?
(Flash) ROM: how much ROM? do we want Flash ROM or just "regular" ROM? read/write cycle? manafacturer?
LCD: resolution? refresh rate? manafacturer? (I keep asking that because we don't want to cheaply made crap that breaks easily)
LCD Driver: buffer size? r/w cycle? manafacturer? compatibilty with LCD (pretty much a must)?
Keypad details: specifically how many keys and seperate keys for letters? or a alpha mode switch like on the TI83/84+(SE)?
Linkport details: do we want a old IO port (probaly not) or mini-usb, or even 'full' usb? and do we want a mini-jack for the sound? or something else? someone even suggested SD-card compatibilty...
I probaly forgot some important stuff but this is all I can think of now.
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i don't think we need a sd card support. unless it comes for free, i wouldn't bother?
its a calculator, what would people need an sd card for.
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SDRAM != SD card iirc. EDIT: nevermind, I missed the last sentence
Maybe we can pick the same Flash chip as TI's, it's not that crappy and it's cheap. We DEFINITELY need another LCD though ;)
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A 96x65 screen would make me very happy ;)
Also, like I said in the other thread, I think that I/O linking should be done via a headphone jack, because there is already a huge number of cables that would fit it, and it would be easier for sound to implement as well.
A mini-usb jack would be nice. So would specifically gearing the keyboard to work well with KOS, so we might want to make that a last minute decision.
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I think we want more then 96x65, personally I am in favor of QVGA which is 320x240. It isn't neccesarily more expensive and adds greatly to the overall feeling. I believe I said it somewhere else already but I think if this will run KOS it should run a upgraded version of it which takes full use of new instructions and the 4x greater speed. Sorry, I know it is quite a pain to write a OS let stand having to 're' write it, you can always you KOS Z80 as a reference and bse for KOS eZ80 though. Rogue shouldn't be too hard to port over right? I think we are aiming for something Nspirish but cooler, faster and in general just better. I am in favor of your IO headphone jack though.
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Can we change this conversation title to start with z80? I just think it would be better not to get confused.
Okay, For the z80, 96x64 is fine. 65 is too much. 96x64 is a 3:2 ratio.
I agree with the link port, sir, and I am liking the mini usb option. I don't like SD card compatibility, though.
@matthias: maybe a bigger screen, but then again, this is to go against the TI-8x series. The arm is supposed to go against the Nspire.
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Well, I will have to modify KOS to work on an eZ80 in the first place, I was just shooting for compatibility with TI KOS programs. GUI programs will be compatible just fine, but I'm worried about programs that request full LCD and RAM access.
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The newer HP-50gs have sd card slots, so even though this is a calc, we shouldn't rule it out.
Also, what will the form factor be? 84 sized or Voyage 200? If it ends up being v200 sized we can always put a "DVORAK" keyboard, and still have it allowed on tests.
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Well, not many people know how to use a DVORAK keyboard. A lot of people use QWERTY, and a lot of people use ABCDE. People will know where to find their letters with ABCDE or QWERTY. Since QWERTY is ruled out, ABCDE seems the way to go.
Plus, I personally don't like DVORAK :P
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@matthias1992: No QVGA. That's a bit too big, especially for this kind of calculator.
No worries though - you'll get a big screen for the ARM based calc (OTARM)! :)
@fb39ca4: Maybe, but no one uses HPs these days. Many students use TI, and then seeing a SD card slot will make it look weird. Just my 2 cents.
Also, this will be an 84 sized calc, with a similar build to it.
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In general, some thoughts:
1) SD slots are really not needed. I just can't envision anyone who would really want to do that. And besides, this is a calculator, not a phone/iPod Touch.
2) Mini USB is great. You could also put in a regular USB lead to allow USB devices and such. Of course, that's optional, and we still have to stick to "It's a calculator" rules.
3) Link port works perfectly (with the speaker jack size). I also suggest including a regular link to link cable, USB mini to USB mini cable, and an adapter to work with the TI calcs. (Adapter is optional, you can debate on whether or not to support it)
4) ABCDE is my preference. Not many people know the DVORAK format anyway, so why confuse them with it?
5) There was also a mention of a nice backlight, which would be a really cool idea to use. The OP (matthias1992) might want to include that in the list.
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I think a qvga screen would be fine. The nspire has that resolution. However, if it makes the physical dimensions too big, we could go a smaller, maybe 192x128 or 240*160. With any screen, native graysacle is a must.
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@fb39ca4: Are you sure you're talking about the right device? The OTZ80 will have to stay the same as the regular TI-8x series screen.
The OTARM (this topic is OTZ80) will compete with the Nspire, and have a nice colorful screen :)
The OTZ80 will have a small screen WITH grayscale. ;)
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dvorak being ruled out = me sadface. but i understand, it *would* confuse people, so i vote for ABCDE.
i'm thinking the screen resolution should be larger than 96x64, we don't want to mimic TI, we want an upgraded calculator. i'm thinking either 128x96 or 160x128 are ideal.
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I'm still not sure about that though. We actually need to mimic TI to get the calculator to sell. If it's cheaper but doesn't look like a TI-8x, people will think it can't do anything.
As for screen size, I still think the 96x64 is a good size to work with.
Since we want the old TI programs and others to still run, how are you going to do that with a bigger screen?
Centering it isn't exactly interesting, nor is scaling it up.
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Yeah, centering is not fun. iPod apps on the iPad, anyone?
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We can have a 192x128 screen, so it scales perfectly.
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I like the idea of a slightly larger screen, however, I think that the screen's size in inches should stay the same, or close to it, but the pixels should be scaled down.
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SirCmpwn: I like that idea! :) Old calc emulation can just enlarge the pixels. The question is - will it slow down at all?
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Yes. However, it will slow down on the bigger screen without the smaller pixels, too. Which brings me to my next question: clock speed?
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About 20-30 mhz?
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It needn't be too high, because apparently an eZ80 is four times as efficient as a Z80 at the same clock speed. 20mhz should be sufficient.
Here's (http://www.zilog.com/docs/um0077.pdf) the user manual I got that from.
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So, the LCD should be around 3 inches x 2 inches, and we need to decide on a resolution. Personally I prefer 216*144 or 180*120, because the numbers have a lot of factors, which can be important when finding a perfect size for the numbers and letters (maybe 9*12 pixels and 6*8 for small text). I think that the clock speed should be around 24 mhz. And yes, the keyboard should definitely be ABCDE format. I am already better with that than QWERTY. ;)
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Hehe, I like 50 mHZ better than 20.... ;) But, I assume 20 MHz is enough speed, right?
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I'm still not sure about that though. We actually need to mimic TI to get the calculator to sell. If it's cheaper but doesn't look like a TI-8x, people will think it can't do anything.
As for screen size, I still think the 96x64 is a good size to work with.
Since we want the old TI programs and others to still run, how are you going to do that with a bigger screen?
Centering it isn't exactly interesting, nor is scaling it up.
What old TI programs? I thought we were making a new calc here, and we're worried about compatibility with TI-83+? You heard xkcd, we need a bigger screen resolution for sure. Remember, we're going for better than TI.
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I think a bigger screen is a must. 128x192 is the lowest I want to go. I mean we ahve to offer them something new besides the new processor, nobody but the usual geeks will get excited about that, yes of course we have new software as well but a big screen allows for say, multitasking. I have often see people running out of time on math tests because some graphs were slow, if they could do other calculations in the meantime...
I don't think we need the old programs to run on it, it is a new device, not a clone with some slight upgrades. Really trust me big screens are quite inexpensive and they add greatly to resell value. (and overall looks). 96x64 is outdated.
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I'm still not sure about that though. We actually need to mimic TI to get the calculator to sell. If it's cheaper but doesn't look like a TI-8x, people will think it can't do anything.
As for screen size, I still think the 96x64 is a good size to work with.
Since we want the old TI programs and others to still run, how are you going to do that with a bigger screen?
Centering it isn't exactly interesting, nor is scaling it up.
What old TI programs? I thought we were making a new calc here, and we're worried about compatibility with TI-83+? You heard xkcd, we need a bigger screen resolution for sure. Remember, we're going for better than TI.
exactly!
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And you guys are missing my point. We can do a bigger screen, assuming we just enlarge pixels.
But you still have 2 things to consider:
1) Teacher/student friendliness. We need to make it so that teachers can accept it, students can buy it without complaints, and the testing board can allow it. Having a super big screen isn't going to really help. I'm not against enlarging the screen a little bit, but don't make it into an iPod Touch. :P
2) TI compatibility. That's something interesting, eh? Although we are more or less trying to be better than TI, are we really going to throw years of ASM, Basic, and other TI-8x stuff away? This calc has the potential to run over TI's calcs. If we ever want to see some good stuff from TI-8x programs and applications without endless porting, we need to create a compatibility layer. Of course, programs designed specifically for KOS will do MUCH better, and will even look better too.
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Albertrocks: very true.
Maybe at one point we can have someone that knows what they are doing, write a windows program tha will change something in ti-basic into kos format?
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And you guys are missing my point. We can do a bigger screen, assuming we just enlarge pixels.
But you still have 2 things to consider:
1) Teacher/student friendliness. We need to make it so that teachers can accept it, students can buy it without complaints, and the testing board can allow it. Having a super big screen isn't going to really help. I'm not against enlarging the screen a little bit, but don't make it into an iPod Touch. :P
2) TI compatibility. That's something interesting, eh? Although we are more or less trying to be better than TI, are we really going to throw years of ASM, Basic, and other TI-8x stuff away? This calc has the potential to run over TI's calcs. If we ever want to see some good stuff from TI-8x programs and applications without endless porting, we need to create a compatibility layer. Of course, programs designed specifically for KOS will do MUCH better, and will even look better too.
Ok, agreed with the compatibility. How about 188x124? (more or less) Something that is in the 3:2 ratio but definitely >100 in both width and height.
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And you guys are missing my point. We can do a bigger screen, assuming we just enlarge pixels.
But you still have 2 things to consider:
1) Teacher/student friendliness. We need to make it so that teachers can accept it, students can buy it without complaints, and the testing board can allow it. Having a super big screen isn't going to really help. I'm not against enlarging the screen a little bit, but don't make it into an iPod Touch. :P
2) TI compatibility. That's something interesting, eh? Although we are more or less trying to be better than TI, are we really going to throw years of ASM, Basic, and other TI-8x stuff away? This calc has the potential to run over TI's calcs. If we ever want to see some good stuff from TI-8x programs and applications without endless porting, we need to create a compatibility layer. Of course, programs designed specifically for KOS will do MUCH better, and will even look better too.
Ok, agreed with the compatibility. How about 188x124? (more or less) Something that is in the 3:2 ratio but definitely >100 in both width and height.
are we going to have a higher rez, and same size screen
or
same rez and larger screen size?
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Albertrocks: very true.
Maybe at one point we can have someone that knows what they are doing, write a windows program tha will change something in ti-basic into kos format?
Good idea. Plus it will actually change the program so the calculator it self doesn't have to do the scaling which saves on speed, altough these programs are going to be bigger because you can't optimize 'em to the max. But size isn't much of a problem anymore.
I agree on >20Mhz
As for RAM:16mb?
Flash-Rom: Also 24mb? maybe more, depends on OS size.
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How are we going to make a compatibility layer without including the whole TI-OS? Face it, all programs made for TI-83+ rely on the TI software in some way.
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How are we going to make a compatibility layer without including the whole TI-OS? Face it, all programs made for TI-83+ rely on the TI software in some way.
True but happybobjr just offered the solution, converting converting converting. Won't work flawlessly but It will do. Secondly the asm programs will have little trouble being ported over, they only need to be enlarged or centered not entirely converted.
I think a windows program could easily convert say: Disp into something that KOS understands. When it comes to optimized basic-routines though..I dont know..
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Albertrocks: very true.
Maybe at one point we can have someone that knows what they are doing, write a windows program tha will change something in ti-basic into kos format?
Good idea. Plus it will actually change the program so the calculator it self doesn't have to do the scaling which saves on speed, altough these programs are going to be bigger because you can't optimize 'em to the max. But size isn't much of a problem anymore.
I agree on >20Mhz
As for RAM:16mb?
Flash-Rom: Also 24mb? maybe more, depends on OS size.
The eZ80 can only address up to 16MB of memory total. Unless we want to include memory-swapping support like in the TI-83+, which I'm not completely opposed to. It might complicate things a bit, though.
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Well, we're not going to throw away every single fun game written for the TI-8x series, are we? :P
I like the converter idea though. That would be very efficient, and avoid even including any of TI's stuff.
We would still need a Basic editor for TI (er, OT) Basic. Something similar, but with more features.
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Well, we're not going to throw away every single fun game written for the TI-8x series, are we? :P
I like the converter idea though. That would be very efficient, and avoid even including any of TI's stuff.
We would still need a Basic editor for TI (er, OT) Basic. Something similar, but with more features.
I hope you mean similar in terms of ease of use? Because Ti-basic lacks alot of features, I think we need to give OT-Basic a very, very good thought!
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Albertrocks: very true.
Maybe at one point we can have someone that knows what they are doing, write a windows program tha will change something in ti-basic into kos format?
Good idea. Plus it will actually change the program so the calculator it self doesn't have to do the scaling which saves on speed, altough these programs are going to be bigger because you can't optimize 'em to the max. But size isn't much of a problem anymore.
I agree on >20Mhz
As for RAM:16mb?
Flash-Rom: Also 24mb? maybe more, depends on OS size.
The eZ80 can only address up to 16MB of memory total. Unless we want to include memory-swapping support like in the TI-83+, which I'm not completely opposed to. It might complicate things a bit, though.
Aah I forgot about that, lets make 'em both 16 then shall we? everyone agrees? (I think we don't want to make this one too complex, we might enlarge the flahs and do page swapping there but I strongly suggest the ram being within the eZ80's range)
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Well, as I said, OT Basic (or KOS Basic, whatever) should be superb and easy to write.
Maybe convert TI Basic files too? That's probably really easy.
For ASM programs, a decompiler needs to be written, then a converter which can convert bcalls and such to OTZ80 assembly/programs.
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Why are people so opposed to the fact that new software can/will be written for this device? Nobody made such a big deal when the TI-83+ came out and we couldn't run TI-86 games on it. Perhaps someone could eventually write something like Emu8x if we want to use TI-83+ software, but I don't think we should make it such a big deal when designing this device. This is NOT TI. We might be throwing away "fun games", but games aren't the point of this device anyway. People can write new games if they want, taking advantage of how much better this device is than the TI-83+.
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Why are people so opposed to the fact that new software can/will be written for this device? Nobody made such a big deal when the TI-83+ came out and we couldn't run TI-86 games on it. Perhaps someone could eventually write something like Emu8x if we want to use TI-83+ software, but I don't think we should make it such a big deal when designing this device. This is NOT TI. We might be throwing away "fun games", but games aren't the point of this device anyway. People can write new games if they want, taking advantage of how much better this device is than the TI-83+.
I couldn't agree with you more. Yes I know this is contradictonary with the fact that I jsut argeed with alberthrocks on the comp. layer but this is actually more my point of view then that, I just don't want't to halt process beacuse of this.
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We won't halt. We'll continue on with the OS building and hardware. But when we're done, we will eventually need to design a compat layer or converter. I really don't mind as long as Axe gets ported. :) But for the other students at school? They will be wanting that "Mario" or "Pacman99" game from the other person's TI, and when they try transfering it (or downloading and installing it), they would be kind of pissed that the calc can't run it. Again, just my 2 cents on the topic.
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We won't halt. We'll continue on with the OS building and hardware. But when we're done, we will eventually need to design a compat layer or converter. I really don't mind as long as Axe gets ported. :) But for the other students at school? They will be wanting that "Mario" or "Pacman99" game from the other person's TI, and when they try transfering it (or downloading and installing it), they would be kind of pissed that the calc can't run it. Again, just my 2 cents on the topic.
I don't understand this. If someone has a Casio graphing calculator, for example, why would they expect to run games made for a TI graphing calculator?
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We won't halt. We'll continue on with the OS building and hardware. But when we're done, we will eventually need to design a compat layer or converter. I really don't mind as long as Axe gets ported. :) But for the other students at school? They will be wanting that "Mario" or "Pacman99" game from the other person's TI, and when they try transfering it (or downloading and installing it), they would be kind of pissed that the calc can't run it. Again, just my 2 cents on the topic.
Maybe converting can be done on-calc? then as soon as it recieves a TI-Basic program it will auto-convert it, conversion can also be done manually of course. Seeing what Axe can do I don't think it's as impossible as it sounds. I do recommend giving a warning stating that since this is not the native programming language for the calc errors may occur or something like that. We want them to develop for our platform but be able, just 'be able' to use old programs.
Second, If people like our calc then we are sure to get tons of games within no-time! we could even provide those by the masses with the release (not pre-installed but downloadable from a site).
Is anyone in for pretty-print functionality? I personally am altough I hated the speed decrease with ti's version, I am sure we can do better then TI though. For a student it would be a big plus too I think!
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The processor is going to be fast enough that we can just write an 8x emulator.
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The processor is going to be fast enough that we can just write an 8x emulator.
IMO this is the only practical way to do any sort of compatibility, and heck if you have enough ram and rom storage of a 83+ rom would be no issue.
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We won't halt. We'll continue on with the OS building and hardware. But when we're done, we will eventually need to design a compat layer or converter. I really don't mind as long as Axe gets ported. :) But for the other students at school? They will be wanting that "Mario" or "Pacman99" game from the other person's TI, and when they try transfering it (or downloading and installing it), they would be kind of pissed that the calc can't run it. Again, just my 2 cents on the topic.
I don't understand this. If someone has a Casio graphing calculator, for example, why would they expect to run games made for a TI graphing calculator?
This is Z80, the same core as the TI-8x series. We're not building a Casio.
Although a new user base can fill the holes....
We won't halt. We'll continue on with the OS building and hardware. But when we're done, we will eventually need to design a compat layer or converter. I really don't mind as long as Axe gets ported. :) But for the other students at school? They will be wanting that "Mario" or "Pacman99" game from the other person's TI, and when they try transfering it (or downloading and installing it), they would be kind of pissed that the calc can't run it. Again, just my 2 cents on the topic.
Maybe converting can be done on-calc? then as soon as it recieves a TI-Basic program it will auto-convert it, conversion can also be done manually of course. Seeing what Axe can do I don't think it's as impossible as it sounds. I do recommend giving a warning stating that since this is not the native programming language for the calc errors may occur or something like that. We want them to develop for our platform but be able, just 'be able' to use old programs.
Second, If people like our calc then we are sure to get tons of games within no-time! we could even provide those by the masses with the release (not pre-installed but downloadable from a site).
Is anyone in for pretty-print functionality? I personally am altough I hated the speed decrease with ti's version, I am sure we can do better then TI though. For a student it would be a big plus too I think!
I like pretty print as long as it isn't as buggy and slow as the crappy TI OS is. :)
@fb39ca4, JonimusPrime: Likely the easiest, but: 1) It's kind of illegal unless you own the calc, which can prompt lovely insane lawsuits from TI; 2) How will the regular student who doesn't know much know where to download, not even including if they know how to install/run it?
As I've said, I'm only looking for bare compatibility. Nothing more, nothing less. If our calc is successful, I'm sure that plenty of people would jump on board and develop games, utilities, etc.
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what does imo stand for?
ok, lets not all fuss about the compatibility with the ti programs.
Conversion programs will almost without doubt come into fruition, from ti to kos.
either on calc or on computer.
on calc.
Axe is a big inspiration to newer calc owners. So we MUST be able to put it on and adjust the outcome to kos.
on computer.
Remember this is more than a calculator. We still need to be able to transfer info from a computer onto a calc.
So we shall need a linking program on windows and/or mac's and/or Linux's
Side note: Shall we set up our own ticalc.org type of website for archives? or shall we just use omnimaga and ticalc?
personally i am for a whole new site, and put on both the new and onto ticalc.
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An emulator would be the solution. Also, guys, remember that just because something runs on a z80 TI calc doesn't mean that it will run on *EVERY EXISTING* z80 devices. It's not all about the processor. You have to take in account the LCD being used, the LCD driver being used (heck, some 83+ games won't run well on some 83+ because of different LCD hardware.), if the hardware contains a GPU or not, the way the memory is layed out and many more things. Do not assume if someone writes a TI-83+ game that all it will take is converting it to the new calc. Heck, take Gameboy games for example: You need TI-Boy SE to run them on the 84+. Renaming the extension from .gb to .8xp or 8xk just doesn't do it.
Of course, if someone writes a good converter, it could maybe work. However, it would be nice to see new stuff being done adapted to the platform.
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I can do the linking part. Libusb will be a start for now, but writing custom drivers won't be too much of a problem.
IMO = in my opinion
IMHO =in my honest opinion
Imao = in my arrogant opinion.
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so are we planing ez80 or z80?
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For linking, we should have the calc emulate a usb mass storage device, so no drivers are required.
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I think we're pretty much on a consensus for TI compatibility: we'll use our own language and specs, with maybe some similarities from TI but more powerful. For apps and programs, we'll try our best with on calc/computer converters. No emulators, due to legal issues. That's pretty much it - we'll go back to this lovely question AFTER we're done with hardware prototyping, and have a serious, working OS on it.
@fb39ca4: Great idea! I'm not sure how the OS on the computer reads things, but if we just had a "virtual" FAT file system on the calc, it would be a smooth copy/paste transfer. :D
Basically, there is no FAT filesystem on the calc - it's stored in a special way. However, when plugged in, it emulates a FAT file system, with folders like Applications, Programs, etc.
When someone copies to or from the calc, the calc will be notified, and in response, will recv/send FAT data. Receiving would save the file being sent, sending will save a calc file onto the computer.
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BrandonW was working on a program to emulate a fat filesystem for an 84, but I don't think it ever got released.
http://calcg.org/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?t=8443 (http://calcg.org/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?t=8443)
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@fb39ca4: Great idea! I'm not sure how the OS on the computer reads things, but if we just had a "virtual" FAT file system on the calc, it would be a smooth copy/paste transfer. :D
Basically, there is no FAT filesystem on the calc - it's stored in a special way. However, when plugged in, it emulates a FAT file system, with folders like Applications, Programs, etc.
When someone copies to or from the calc, the calc will be notified, and in response, will recv/send FAT data. Receiving would save the file being sent, sending will save a calc file onto the computer.
Why can't we use FAT? A well-established filesystem might be a good idea.
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@fb39ca4: Great idea! I'm not sure how the OS on the computer reads things, but if we just had a "virtual" FAT file system on the calc, it would be a smooth copy/paste transfer. :D
Basically, there is no FAT filesystem on the calc - it's stored in a special way. However, when plugged in, it emulates a FAT file system, with folders like Applications, Programs, etc.
When someone copies to or from the calc, the calc will be notified, and in response, will recv/send FAT data. Receiving would save the file being sent, sending will save a calc file onto the computer.
Why can't we use FAT? A well-established filesystem might be a good idea.
Maybe, if it's workable. That's something SirCmpwn will have to decide. That will go into the software section for OTZ80.
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Matthias, please don't double-post within such short period of time, use the modify button, thanks.
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OK, we've really veered off path for this project. This is a hardware discussion, not software.
We need a solid foundation (the hardware) before we even think about proceeding to software.
That said, core things first: What will the CPU be? It seems everybody has agreed to eZ80, so we'll use that.
What clock speed will we use? There's only 2 choices here AFAIK (from http://digikey.com/PTM/PTMPartList.page?site=us&lang=en&ptm=6200&WT.z_ptm_structured=Buy%20Now%20Button): 20 mhz or 50 mhz?
So, choose: 20 mhz or 50 mhz?
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FAT is not a great idea, IMHO. We should think of something else, or just use KFS.
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OK, we've really veered off path for this project. This is a hardware discussion, not software.
We need a solid foundation (the hardware) before we even think about proceeding to software.
That said, core things first: What will the CPU be? It seems everybody has agreed to eZ80, so we'll use that.
What clock speed will we use? There's only 2 choices here AFAIK (from http://digikey.com/PTM/PTMPartList.page?site=us&lang=en&ptm=6200&WT.z_ptm_structured=Buy%20Now%20Button): 20 mhz or 50 mhz?
So, choose: 20 mhz or 50 mhz?
50MHz, of course :)
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Well I'd say 20Mhz is plenty and will also be cheaper, run cooler, and use less power so I vote the 20Mhz.
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I would say 50 MHz. KOS is multithreaded, people.
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I would say 50 MHz. KOS is multithreaded, people.
Lets not decide on an OS before we have the hardware set shall we. As cool as KOS is I think the OS should be built to the hardware not the other way around.
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20 MHz sounds good. We need to make sure to choose a LCD with a good LCD driver to not run into the grayscale problems seen on the 8x series, though. Sure, the focus needs to be math (with a way to allow teachers to lock down the calc to not allow 3rd party software/patched OS usage and with no way to crack that temporary protection), but you need to not repeat TI's mistakes.
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Lets not decide on an OS before we have the hardware set shall we. As cool as KOS is I think the OS should be built to the hardware not the other way around.
While this is an admirable goal, I prefer to have the software and the hardware complement each other. No need to keep them separate, if you plan both from an early age, you can craft them to suit each other.
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I thought we would have an lcd driver with native grayscale support.
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I thought we would have an lcd driver with native grayscale support.
Something with memory mapping would be nice as well, needing to interface the LCD for every change is a pita.
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I don't think memory mapping is a good idea, unless you can quickly change the map. It would also be nice to leave some of the RAM free, instead of committing some to the screen.
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If we use Flash memory, we also need to use a Flash chip (and writing to flash method) that won't wear out after 2-3 years like the first batch of Casio Algebra FX 1.0 and 2.0 graphing calculators. (it was fixed in later batches)
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I don't think memory mapping is a good idea, unless you can quickly change the map. It would also be nice to leave some of the RAM free, instead of committing some to the screen.
We would have to commit a buffer to hold screen data anyway. I don't see your point. Being able to change the memory address of the buffer on-the-fly would be good though.
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I don't think memory mapping is a good idea, unless you can quickly change the map. It would also be nice to leave some of the RAM free, instead of committing some to the screen.
We would have to commit a buffer to hold screen data anyway. I don't see your point. Being able to change the memory address of the buffer on-the-fly would be good though.
Thats how TI-86 grayscale is done, they just had the interrupt switch which buffer the Display driver pointed at.
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I believe on the TI-85 and the very early TI-81s it was how it was done too.
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Idea:
We don't have a battery slot. Instead, we have an internal battery inside the device that charges via the mini-usb port. Then, we can have companion software for the computer for transfers and updates, like iTunes for the iPod. I can write the companion software, but the hardware should be there to support it.
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that could work, too.
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I like that idea.
<offtopic>So, so far, sir seems to be the z80 leader, and I being the arm leader. Btw, sir, since you are a leader, you get to be a moderator. Congrats. </offtopic>
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truthfully I don't love that idea, I dont' think people bring a portable usb charger (like me :P) on the bus, so if they run out of power...
Note: although you could have a warning at 2 hours, or so, left or something so it doesn't die during a test.
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I never liked the warning on ti's screen. Maybe have it include spares batteries, or only run at 20mhz with a low battery.
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I never liked the warning on ti's screen. Maybe have it include spares batteries, or only run at 20mhz with a low battery.
I like that last idea, But how should the user know he's/she's ow on battery? Have a battery status at top right?
note: look who i quoted.
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You should be able to check your battery in the memory menu or something.
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I never liked the warning on ti's screen. Maybe have it include spares batteries, or only run at 20mhz with a low battery.
I like that last idea, But how should the user know he's/she's ow on battery? Have a battery status at top right?
note: look who i quoted.
There probably will be a battery status, but I would think there would be an option in the menu to automatically change it or not. EG, if option is set, then calc goes to 20MHZ when on low battery. If not set, then stays at 50MHZ until the battery drains out.
Note: Look who i quoted
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You should be able to check your battery in the memory menu or something.
ya but how often will someone if they are working on a big project.
note: we should have a killer lazier defense system to kill all thieves!!! mu ha ha >:D
note2: Prince Happybobjr appreciates being recognized
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You should be able to check your battery in the memory menu or something.
ya but how often will someone if they are working on a big project.
note: we should have a killer lazier defense system to kill all thieves!!! mu ha ha >:D
That's why it should be automatic.
oh, and that's what the claws are for.
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ohhh, i thought those were wings to make it easier to follow you like a pet/trained friend.
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No, that's what the link port is for. It spins the cable around at high speeds to fly.
anyway, back on topic, does everyone like the idea to go to 20MHZ with low battery based on an option?
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i prefered rechargable litium battery at 50, but i don't know whats best.
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@matthias1992: No QVGA. That's a bit too big, especially for this kind of calculator.
No worries though - you'll get a big screen for the ARM based calc (OTARM)! :)
@fb39ca4: Maybe, but no one uses HPs these days. Many students use TI, and then seeing a SD card slot will make it look weird. Just my 2 cents.
Also, this will be an 84 sized calc, with a similar build to it.
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In general, some thoughts:
1) SD slots are really not needed. I just can't envision anyone who would really want to do that. And besides, this is a calculator, not a phone/iPod Touch.
2) Mini USB is great. You could also put in a regular USB lead to allow USB devices and such. Of course, that's optional, and we still have to stick to "It's a calculator" rules.
3) Link port works perfectly (with the speaker jack size). I also suggest including a regular link to link cable, USB mini to USB mini cable, and an adapter to work with the TI calcs. (Adapter is optional, you can debate on whether or not to support it)
4) ABCDE is my preference. Not many people know the DVORAK format anyway, so why confuse them with it?
5) There was also a mention of a nice backlight, which would be a really cool idea to use. The OP (matthias1992) might want to include that in the list.
The newer HP-50gs have sd card slots, so even though this is a calc, we shouldn't rule it out.
Yes, they do, and I like this idea. Heck, we could actually use micro sd if we wanted to.
Actually in regards to HP calculators, alot of engineers use and love them from what I've heard.
320x240 resolution is my prefrence, it could still retain a small screen size if we get an lcd with smaller pixels(dpi?). However, 192x128 or 240x160 wouldn't be bad either.
I really like the backlight idea, mini usb, and linkport idea too. Alphabetical order for the keyboard layout works for me as well.
The processor is going to be fast enough that we can just write an 8x emulator.
IMO this is the only practical way to do any sort of compatibility, and heck if you have enough ram and rom storage of a 83+ rom would be no issue.
I agree with this as well.
Idea:
We don't have a battery slot. Instead, we have an internal battery inside the device that charges via the mini-usb port. Then, we can have companion software for the computer for transfers and updates, like iTunes for the iPod. I can write the companion software, but the hardware should be there to support it.
I really like this idea too(battery needs to be accessible and replaceable), but if we use regular batteries instead, I'd recommend AAs instead of AAAs. AAs are the same price as AAAs and they hold a charge longer. A battery level indicator light would be nice as well.
*Whew* long post.
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I'd rather it have a resolution somewhere in the middle. 320x240 might be too much for it to handle well (plus it would take a lot of RAM for buffers!)
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192x128 then perhaps?
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192x128 then perhaps?
Works for me. However, maybe the same size in inches, so the pixels are better.
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About the whole software issue, why not just have it act like a FAT32 Flash drive? We've been trying to do that to our 84s for years. :P Just have a file hierarchy something like this:
/boot (for bootloaders, or just an OS)
/sys (for hardware drivers, OS programs)
/usr (for the good stuff)
Or we could make it so that the Flash drive only gives access to the /usr and up, unless you enable a certain setting on the calc. that way, normal users don't screw up their calc because "hey, I didn't put this on there! Deleted!"
Whatever screen size we use, can it be a widescreen-style design? This fits much better for games, graphs + calculations, and better for calc button space (assuming we use the vertical rectangle)
Just my opinions.
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I agree with the flash-drive and the wide-screen idea. Although a 3:2 ratio, I think, look best.
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But no rectangular pixels! That was the only bad thing about the 86!
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Yea, rectangular pixels would be very.. odd.
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True, I would prefer nothing like the 85/86. At least on Casio calcs, pixels on 128x64 screens are squares. Also no blue LCDs like the 82, 85 or the 2001 version of the 83
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so what is the resolution of ti 83+ pixels?
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Can we forget about AAA batteries go with AA or some sort of rechargeable battery.
I like the idea of a 192x128 pixel setup.
I'd like to see a 3.5mm headphone jack. As well as a backlit lcd.
The other thing is the form factor of this device. Just throwing my two cents out there, but I think a look similar to the voyage 200 would cool. However I think the issue would be with all the calc buttons. Either way on what you guys decide, I think it should stand out from the TI form factor.
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Ok, my thoughts:
For resolution, i would also go with the 192x128, albeit a same size screen. Backlight would be great...
For ports, I think the SD would be a good addition if not to expensive, etc, but no where near necessary. Either a mini usb-b, or usb-a is needed, the usb-a seeming the more likel choice to me, since most usb devices are usb-a. Honestly though, I would like to see both. A standard 1/8 in. headphone jack would be good. And the "plug in recharge" sounds like a good idea... except when you have nothing to plug into.
Speaking of batteries, I think the best option would be rechargeable AAs, with the "plug in recharge" supported for them. I know this has been deemed by quite a few as impractical etc, but thats just my two cents.
ABCD Keyboard. Enough said. ;)
I also agree that we should just build it, and worry about trying to get compatibility later with software.
I'm sorry if I added my thoughts to anything already decided, I can't really tell. :P
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camera anyone? lol jk :P
I think that the calc should have a battery life of at least 20 hours, or if not, have a rechargable battery inside of it- preferably both.
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I think that we should layout the entire hardware speck, and then tell me, and I can write an emulator for it and we can start building the firmware. A nice feature would be the ability to get the battery level programatically.
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I think that we should layout the entire hardware speck, and then tell me, and I can write an emulator for it and we can start building the firmware. A nice feature would be the ability to get the battery level programatically.
^ This, cause before i can help dev anything hardware wise i need to know what we are using. lol
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Therefore, anyone on the hardware team should write up a *full* spec, including ports and everything, and post it. Then, we can nitpick at it until it is usable, and I can make an emulator. Let's get this show on the road, folks!
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That's actually a fantastic idea. I'm sure it will still take a while to iron specs. out though. :)
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Therefore, anyone on the hardware team should write up a *full* spec, including ports and everything, and post it. Then, we can nitpick at it until it is usable, and I can make an emulator. Let's get this show on the road, folks!
I'll work on that. But I'll leave out all the [opional] peripherals!
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Hey, I'm already working on an emulator :P
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Hey, I'm already working on an emulator :P
Thats cool cant wait to actually mess with hardware tho :P
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You know, depending how much power draw 50 mhz actually draws, battery may not be an issue. You're assuming it will cut the power usage in half, while that may not actually be true. Besides, if the calc runs >20 hrs on 50 and >30 on 20 mhz, is it really worth the sacrifice? You're already getting a ridiculous amount of time!
A lot of people, it seems, think higher resolution means bigger screen. We've had lcds that are the same size as the 84+, but much higher resolution for years, more than double, even since the GB.
you know, an emulator wouldn't be so illegal. We can't provide it with the OS, but it's not like everyone will want it, only those who want the compatibility. The only people who will care about compatibility will know how calculator games will work, and can get ahold of their own rom, along with the emu, say, from ticalc.org.
as for keypads, are we going the Alpha-lock route, or the separate buttons? Heck, I'm fine with either configuration, it would just be nice to know which.
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I would vote for alpha-lock combo. It lessens the keys you have to look through .
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calc84maniac is already working on an emulator?
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I suggest we use the OP registers for variables? Since OTBasic vars are going to be prefix it has to be a quite a static (with that I mean that different varaibles have a fixed lenght. Especially the small ones like bool, byte, short and even int) buffer. And it has to have fast reading and writing. I think the OP's are perfect for this. Does anybody know how much memory in total the OP buffers supply?
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The OP "registers" are actually six 9-byte (?) memory areas in RAM, and are specific to the TI-OS.
There will probably be an alternate strategy used ;D
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The OP "registers" are actually six 9-byte (?) memory areas in RAM, and are specific to the TI-OS.
There will probably be an alternate strategy used ;D
I think it was far more then that...I recall about 2-4K in total...I might be mistaken tho. Well then I suggest adding a very small superfast ram for varaibles.
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@willrandship: NO emulators, period. We don't want to give TI a reason to sue us.
In general, it's either Alpha Lock or a separate keyboard (ABCDE on the botton, like the TouchPad in a way)
FINAL CHANCE TO SUBMIT IDEAS! TODAY IS THE LAST DAY! AT MIDNIGHT, SUBMITTING IDEAS WILL BE CLOSED!
(Submit ideas in this thread)
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The calculator should have more "durable" keys than the 84, because for example, the 2ND button on my calculator is already worn out and slightly pushed in, so when I push it the keypress doesn't always register.
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Here are just some final thoughts that I have:
-I would be okay with it having a backlit screen, just as long as you could turn off the light
-the 3.5 mm headphone jack shouldn't be advertised as a headphone jack, but sound should be supported by the OS and will be easy to put in programs
-it should come preloaded with a port of axe and some math programs
-I think that it should most definitely have rechargable lithium batteries charge when plugged into the computer
-do not make it seem too much like the ti-8x calcs in its appearance
-calculus support(?)
-3d graphing(?)
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3D Graphing is almost a must (although that is more of a firmware discussion :P), and the Axe port is all Quigibo. As for calculus support, I don't know what users will need for calculus, so I couldn't say.
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A touch pad instead of arrow keys would be nice, and also make it look better.
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i think that he was talking about an emulator for this calc. we would be making.
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That'd be useful. It could be tested out w/o ever bothering to make it yourself/buy it.
Emulators are in general a good thing ;D
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I may have mentioned it before, but I'd like to suggest a battery indicator light.
*edit* Fixed my dyslexic sentence :P
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A touch pad instead of arrow keys would be nice, and also make it look better.
Since this is supposed to compete with the TI-8x line, I think people might be more used to arrow keys. Or perhaps there could be different hardware versions (one with arrow keys, another with a touchpad) like the TI-Nspire.
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i like arrow keys better, It always feels just right....
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Idk if I am too late but I agree with happybobjr.
On an unrelated note, I think the Casio FX-9750G Plus is around $60-70 online, but where I live, it used to be sold at $50 in 2006-07 and $25 later. It has a slower processor than the 83+ but faster than the 81. It has 28 KB of user RAM but no archive and no ASM capabilities. As for the FX-9860G series, it ranges around $90-100, has a 29 MHz processor that can be clocked up to 58 MHz, according to what I saw somewhere online, 64 KB user RAM and 1.5 MB of flash memory. There are models with a SD card slot too. This should give you an idea of how Casio calc prices stand among TI's.
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@alberthrocks
I don't think we should close down this topic. We only have decied on the processor! I think we need to decide on the LCD, LCD driver,RAM, ROM, IO ports etc! Those are still undecided on, as you can see here: http://otcalc.wikidot.com/z80-hardware.
So i suggest we settle those first.
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Okay so here is a massive list with some (G)LCD's (http://www.vishay.com/displays/lcd/). Whew, it took me ages to find someting like this. I found one greyscale GLCD at crystlafontz (http://www.crystalfontz.com/product/CFAL12864Z-G-B2.html), actually there is four of them, see the list here: http://www.crystalfontz.com/products/index-oled.html and scroll down to this section:128 x 64 dots, Solomon SSD1325 Controller. (< yes these are expensive @$50 pcs, but then again price lowers if you buy more of them)
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Idea suggestion closed! :) Discussion may continue for exact specs and such though, so continue on! ;)
This is what I caught:
- Better keys/durability
- Backlit screen with ability to turn off the light
- If going with the 3.5 mm headphone jack, it shouldn't be advertised as a headphone jack, but sound should be supported by the OS and will be easy to put in programs.
- Preloaded with Axe and math programs
- Batteries charge when plugged into the computer (AA rechargeable ones, that is, plus a setting if battery type is unknown)
- Don't look too much like the TI-8x series (but enough for usability for students and compatibility with teachers)
- Calculus support (??) (Note: Derivatives, etc. maybe?)
- 3D graphing (??) (Note: Good idea, but that's firmware side, which a new topic will be opened up soon.)
- Touch pad vs arrow keys
- Emulators
- Battery indicator light (??) (Please clarify!)
- Cheap prices
I will be adding these to the list shortly.
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@matthias1992: No, this topic won't be closed at all. Suggestions are now closed, but we will discuss details in here, esp. after the vote to get a clear idea of exactly what the final hardware is and what we will be placing in.
As for the grayscale screen, please remember that we don't want a $50 screen. It's a third of the TI-84+ SE price! And we're trying to beat them with a cheap price. Of course, we want a good, responsive, grayscale screen, but nothing that is expensive. We're certainly not doing OLED screens (as you linked to), nor anything colored. The backlight itself is under debate as well.
For this: http://www.vishay.com/displays/lcd/
You are looking for the graphic displays, not the character based ones.
I prefer using a trustworthy website to order parts. Not that these aren't, but I like to be a little cautious as well.
That said, DigiKey and Mouser are very good suppliers. If you're hunting for LCDs,
I suggest using Mouser first. Unless you don't mind doing some serious googling (DigiKey doesn't want to show anything unless you know what you want), Mouser is good.
Mouser: http://www.mouser.com/Optoelectronics/Displays/LCD-Displays/_/N-6j735?Keyword=LCD&FS=True
DigiKey: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=524918&k=LCD
Oh, and do note the LCD controllers as well.
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we can't forget about the ability to change the contrast. (note: not a suggestion, just a reminder...)
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As for keys, one thing is that we should try to not make them hard to press, nor too easy. On the TI-Nspire 84+SE keypad, you need to press arrow keys hard enough for contact to be done. However, it would be as bad if keys were so easy to press that we accidentally pressed them all the time.
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As for the battery indicator light: Many devices that use batteries have some sort of light that indicates remaining power. IE: it is green at high charge, and turns red when you have low battery life remaining.
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I prefer more indicators, like very high, high, medium, low, very low, critical.
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true, but i would only want. high. medium. low. dangerously low (10 min remaining or so.)
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How about just a battery bar?
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isn't that what we were thinking?
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Weren'tyou guys talking about a battery light?
As for the battery indicator light: Many devices that use batteries have some sort of light that indicates remaining power.
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i wasn't but they might have :P
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@Builderboy: yea, a battery bar could work fine too. That might be better actually, as it wouldn't require additional hardware.
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@Builderboy: yea, a battery bar could work fine too. That might be better actually, as it wouldn't require additional hardware.
besides, if you really wanted a battery light, it probably wouldn't be that hard to mod the calculator to have one :P
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I'm sorry for the double post but I'm *pretty sure* that I've waited long enough that it's okay. I also know that idea suggestion is closed but I felt that I should ask about this :P.
If the OS supports sound, should we include hardware dedicated towards it?
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For the battery light thing, I was thinking about a red/green LED that can change colors, and if possible, shine both at once to make yellow. It would be under the power button perhaps?
And as for sound... probably not. :( It may cost more, and we really don't want people to think that this calc is an MP3 (although it CAN be with programs and such). We will definitely NOT limit the I/O port for sure.
Polls will be set up shortly (tonight or tomorrow). Stay tuned! :D
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@alberhrocks: I think that design for the battery light would be fine. I'm unsure about placement, but that can be worked out later of course (if it gets included). Sound isn't really necessary IMHO either.
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@alberhrocks: I think that design for the battery light would be fine. I'm unsure about placement, but that can be worked out later of course (if it gets included). Sound isn't really necessary IMHO either.
Agreed.
I was thinking about a red/green LED that can change colors,
Those exists. You are looking for RGB LED's. Here: http://img.en.china.cn/0/0,0,288,745,360,360,8b4a3d3d.jpg
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Sorry for the double post, I waited :P. Altough you can consider me a complete idiot when it comes to rams, flash's and roms I think I ahve found a very suitable Flash candidate: http://www.numonyx.com/Documents/Datasheets/306666_P30_Discrete_DS.pdf
it is the Numonyx StrataFlash. 16MB (which is the max adressing 'rate' of the eZ80), relatively fast read/write cycles and it can be run at 52mhz max (as far as I comprehend the link I just gave you). So to me it seems to fit our needs. I Haven't looked at it's price yet...
the reason I came to this ram flash module is because it is used on my nexys 2 fpga board so I guess it's pretty reliable. Also it has a minimum of 100,000 erases which I think is pretty durable.
Your opinions?
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No problem.
Btw, for flash memory, are there any kind that won't last very long? We need to watch out about that. Back in the days, Casio's first flash calcs would break in a few years because of poor flash memory used in them. It would wear out after a few writes. This is something we don't want to happen in such period of time. My TI-83+ has been used for 9 years and worked well for this long despite several garbage collects.
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100,000 is a lot, and is about the number for TI's 83+ Series calcs too.
They should last a while with a well-designed FS :)
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Yeah, and I've never seen a TI-83+'s flash die. Or even heard of it happening.
Also, KFS is optimized for Flash, and should work great.
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Yeah, and I've never seen a TI-83+'s flash die.
The guy who won the 2009 BASIC contest over here had it happen to his 83+ but I think his calc flash chip must have been defective
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I didn't really read that document, but it appears to be NOR flash.
The problem with NOR flash is the slow write speeds. Apparently that company's NOR flash implements a buffer or something (section 8.4) to speed up writes, however I'm still unsure how slow/fast the NOR will be.
But the exciting thing about it is being able to XIP (execute in place) meaning you can keep your programs in NOR flash and run them there!