Author Topic: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic  (Read 9675 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline calc84maniac

  • eZ80 Guru
  • Coder Of Tomorrow
  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2912
  • Rating: +471/-17
    • View Profile
    • TI-Boy CE
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2011, 11:38:14 pm »
Yeah, I'm sorry about my response. I didn't have time to go into the details of answering your question, but I did notice the 16-cycle thing. I apologize if that came across somewhat rude.
"Most people ask, 'What does a thing do?' Hackers ask, 'What can I make it do?'" - Pablos Holman

Offline Hot_Dog

  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV12 Extreme Poster (Next: 5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3006
  • Rating: +445/-10
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2011, 11:39:03 pm »
thepenguin77, I'm assuming then that Netham45's linked code only writes flash, not unlocks it?

Quote
Yeah, I'm sorry about my response. I didn't have time to go into the details of answering your question, but I did notice the 16-cycle thing. I apologize if that came across somewhat rude

Oh, not at all!  Actually I didn't think you were rude.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 11:40:31 pm by Hot_Dog »

Offline FloppusMaximus

  • LV5 Advanced (Next: 300)
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Rating: +57/-5
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2011, 11:47:50 pm »
Ok, so this is what I remember reading. It was not a DMCA, but it was pretty close. Of course I don't know the whole story (I was 9 when that was posted), so you'll have to get someone older to explain what really happened.

And since I had to go hand copy the link from my old computer, here is the topic that I've had favorited for over a year from which I figured out how to unlock flash. It's by floppusMaximus and you can see on page 2 how cautious everyone is getting. It's pretty vague on the details so it took me quite a while to figure out how to do it...
Haha, I remember those discussions (good old thread #240...)

I did eventually find a simpler and more robust version of the technique I was talking about in that second thread, but I don't know if I ever released that; it's SE-only, of course.  What I would currently recommend using is the technique used by DuckSign, which is based on Brandon's well-known exploit, but much more robust.

But...

It is dangerous to write to Flash.  It's not a matter to be approached lightly.  The Flash protection is sometimes annoying, but it's actually a very nice feature, because it means that you can run all kinds of assembly programs, with nearly unrestricted access to the hardware, without worrying that your data could be corrupted (or worse, your calculator made unbootable.)  Every time somebody writes a program to work around that protection - no matter how skillful or how careful the programmer - that creates new risks, makes users less safe.  If you can do what you want to do without writing to Flash, or only using the supported API - and, most of the time, you can! - we are all better off.  I'm not going to tell people what they can and can't do, but these are things you really need to consider before releasing such a program.

Offline thepenguin77

  • z80 Assembly Master
  • LV10 31337 u53r (Next: 2000)
  • **********
  • Posts: 1594
  • Rating: +823/-5
  • The game in my avatar is bit.ly/p0zPWu
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 11:50:53 pm »
Hot_Dog, actually, that routine Netham gave will both unlock and write to flash. And I assume it will return with it unlocked. BrandonW find's some pretty weird glitches. :)
zStart v1.3.013 9-20-2013 
All of my utilities
TI-Connect Help
You can build a statue out of either 1'x1' blocks or 12'x12' blocks. The 1'x1' blocks will take a lot longer, but the final product is worth it.
       -Runer112

Offline Xeda112358

  • they/them
  • Moderator
  • LV12 Extreme Poster (Next: 5000)
  • ************
  • Posts: 4704
  • Rating: +719/-6
  • Calc-u-lator, do doo doo do do do.
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2011, 11:52:20 pm »
This is why I am glad I have an emulator :) That way if I ever dabble in writing to flash I can very thoroughly test it and recommend it not be used on an actual calc XD

Ooh, that actually makes me wonder if emulators should have a way for some programs to detect if it is an emulator... That way if it isn't, you could make your programs not execute certain code :D

Offline Hot_Dog

  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV12 Extreme Poster (Next: 5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3006
  • Rating: +445/-10
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2011, 11:58:08 pm »
Hot_Dog, actually, that routine Netham gave will both unlock and write to flash. And I assume it will return with it unlocked. BrandonW find's some pretty weird glitches. :)

Now this is a curosity question, since writing to flash is dangerous...does the routine work on all operating systems?

Offline FloppusMaximus

  • LV5 Advanced (Next: 300)
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Rating: +57/-5
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2011, 12:01:54 am »
Ooh, that actually makes me wonder if emulators should have a way for some programs to detect if it is an emulator... That way if it isn't, you could make your programs not execute certain code :D
Seems like that would be a bug in the emulator, don't you think? :P

(There are various seldom-used aspects of the hardware that most emulators don't properly handle; you could probably find one of those to exploit.  But don't be surprised if later emulators fix those holes.  One of my personal goals for TilEm 2 is to eliminate as many of them as possible.)

Offline Xeda112358

  • they/them
  • Moderator
  • LV12 Extreme Poster (Next: 5000)
  • ************
  • Posts: 4704
  • Rating: +719/-6
  • Calc-u-lator, do doo doo do do do.
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2011, 12:05:21 am »
Yeah, but I mean maybe you could make an unused port return a certain value or something? That could be useful in some situations. Heck, maybe you could make those ports do things like have the LCD mapped to a spot in memory and then people could make emulator only games XD

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2011, 12:07:30 am »
AH I remember that thread now. I joined Detacheds around late 2003 (I was Kévin9999 back then because there was another Kevin user and that was the nickname I normally used on forums). I didn't read the entire thread but I remember the discussions about third-party OSes and TI sending C&D letters.

I wonder if that was because back then they were selling APPs and they were scared that people would make it easy to pirate their stuff or steal their code?

Offline FloppusMaximus

  • LV5 Advanced (Next: 300)
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Rating: +57/-5
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2011, 12:17:06 am »
Yeah, but I mean maybe you could make an unused port return a certain value or something? That could be useful in some situations. Heck, maybe you could make those ports do things like have the LCD mapped to a spot in memory and then people could make emulator only games XD
I suppose we could do something like that.  With the ability for the user to disable it if programmers abuse the feature.

The idea of emulator-only games seems a little silly, but maybe if folks in the community wanted to get together and produce a new, fictitious hardware design (Omni-84 Plus Iridium Edition), we could support that as an alternative to the "real" calculator models.

Offline Xeda112358

  • they/them
  • Moderator
  • LV12 Extreme Poster (Next: 5000)
  • ************
  • Posts: 4704
  • Rating: +719/-6
  • Calc-u-lator, do doo doo do do do.
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2011, 12:19:12 am »
Yeah, that was more along the lines I was thinking ! Of course all that would need to change is the addition of new ports and we could be set ^-^ It could have the flash and whatnot unlocked and users could have fun with that :D

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2011, 12:19:19 am »
I agree. That said I'm unsure if it would get an audience as big as real calculator games, though. I think many people who use calc emus use them to debug and test stuff they work on.

Offline FloppusMaximus

  • LV5 Advanced (Next: 300)
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Rating: +57/-5
    • View Profile
Re: An Appeal: Please answer my questions even if my goal is unrealistic
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2011, 12:34:05 am »
Well, yeah, that has to be our primary focus; in order to be useful for debugging, it needs to be as faithful as possible to the real hardware.  But, if people wanted to have a virtual calculator with 2 MB of RAM and a 100 MHz CPU, that would be easy enough to do, and maybe useful for some purposes.

Now this is a curosity question, since writing to flash is dangerous...does the routine work on all operating systems?
If you're talking about Brandon's write-to-user-Flash routine - yes, I think it works on all current operating systems.  Whether it'll work on future OSes, of course, is anybody's guess, but one of the things that bothers me about Brandon's routines is that they don't do any sanity checks to see whether the OS will work or not; they have no failure mode except to crash.