Author Topic: Status of Nspire programming?  (Read 9706 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SolusIpse

  • LV2 Member (Next: 40)
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Rating: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Status of Nspire programming?
« on: June 30, 2010, 10:52:24 pm »
So how much progress has been made in terms of getting games onto Nspire?  Is there anything like TIGCC yet?  Or is it still far from it?  Does the Nspire still emulate z80 properly with the exception of unofficial instructions?  What does one need to do to make sure that z80 ASM programs are compatible with Nspire?

Also, how's the 68k front?  Is it still just TIGCC or did the split happen and there's another C compiler for 68k calcs?  Any good games out?  And is it true that 68k may be phased out in favor of Nspire CAS?  At least Ti-84's going to stay for awhile right?

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2010, 11:02:06 pm »
Hi SolusIpse, nice to see you still around sometimes.

Sadly, Nspire dev has slowed down recently, because Ndless 1.0 is only compatible with OS 1.1, which has issues on newer Nspires and the even newer ones cannot be downgraded below OS 2.0. Ndless 2.0 is progressing incredibly slowly at the moment. It currently runs on OS 1.7, but it doesn't work too well on OS 2.0 yet. The developpers are busy so it hinders developpement a lot. There would probably also be legal issues due to the hack allowing a CAS OS to be sent on a non-CAS calc, so they are waiting for that and trying to figure out a way to get around that.

Right now, though, on OS 1.1, you can do ARM9 assembly and C. I am not experienced in the domain, though, so you would need to ask in this section what tools are required to make games on it.

As for 68K it seems to be slowly fading away, both due to TI phasing out 68K calcs it seems (and Nspires picking up in popularity) and Kevin Kofler trolling scared several veterans away (such as the person maintaining TiLP).

Nspire dev should pick up again once Ndless 2.0 comes out, but there are no date for this yet. I am sure they welcome any contributions, though. You would need to PM ExtendeD or geogeo on yAronet forums or United-TI.

That said, the z80 community is doing some sort of come back, especially with the new language Axe Parser.

Offline SolusIpse

  • LV2 Member (Next: 40)
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Rating: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2010, 11:04:38 pm »
did anyone ever figure out why Ti-Boy SE and lots of other programs no longer worked on new calcs?  Was it really a hardware change on Ti's part?

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2010, 11:06:36 pm »
It was, sadly. The 84+ calcs made after May 2007 only have 48 KB of RAM instead of 128. This means while older 15 MHz calcs got 96 KB of extra RAM, the newer ones got 16. Calc84 was working on an alternative but progress has been slow lately. I hope he won't quit calcs. You can check the TI-Boy SE section. You may find a topic regarding newer calcs.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 11:07:02 pm by DJ Omnimaga »

Offline bwang

  • LV7 Elite (Next: 700)
  • *******
  • Posts: 634
  • Rating: +30/-11
    • View Profile
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 01:50:10 am »
The Nspire does not yet have an equivalent of TIGCC. However, any standard arm-elf-gcc + GNU development tools will work nicely.

Once you get your arm-elf-gcc set up, starting development is as simple as grabbing the skeleton-[windows|linux]-1.0.zip file from the first post here and placing your code in the appropriate places. I think the skeleton files are bug-free now.

Nspire development should speed up as more of the standard library is found. Eventually, we should be able to port existing programs without too much trouble.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 01:50:51 am by bwang »

Offline Lionel Debroux

  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2135
  • Rating: +290/-45
    • View Profile
    • TI-Chess Team
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 02:16:59 am »
Any well-behaved standard arm-elf-gcc toolchain will work for the Nspire indeed, but there are significant restrictions on what the programs can do because there's no program loader (=> no relocation support => a number of uses of global variables, or functions, is impossible).
Writing a BFLT program loader would be fairly easy (because the BFLT format is trivial), and files in BFLT format are easy to produce from the ELF output of arm-elf-gcc toolchains.

Quote
Is it still just TIGCC or did the split happen and there's another C compiler for 68k calcs?
There are two other C compilers for TI-68k calcs: GTC and GCC4TI.
GTC has a brand-new compiler that works both on the computer and on the calculators; GCC4TI is based on TIGCC, it's a superset of it and it contains multiple fixes and optimizations (some of which are thoroughly tested, and were contributed to TIGCC as early as 2002). A lot of work is necessary to raise from the arguably low quality of TIGCC (no sane build system, portability issues in the build scripts, thin test suite, etc.)
There's no sort of come back on the TI-68k community, which has been largely dead since 2007 (though several great programs, like lachprog's, have been released since then).

Quote from: DJ Omnimaga
and Kevin Kofler trolling scared several veterans away (such as the person maintaining TiLP).
Romain LiƩvin left mainly because he is working on getting a higher degree in teaching physics, wanted to spend more time with his wife and children, and didn't learn much anymore (from a development perspective) from maintaining such large projects.
But it's a fact that Kevin Kofler's misbehaviour with so many people over ten years has something to do with Romain's decision, and the decision of many people over the years.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 02:29:13 am by Lionel Debroux »
Member of the TI-Chess Team.
Co-maintainer of GCC4TI (GCC4TI online documentation), TILP and TIEmu.
Co-admin of TI-Planet.

Offline SolusIpse

  • LV2 Member (Next: 40)
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Rating: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2010, 07:49:19 pm »
Kudos to Quigibo!  From the screens Axe is really impressive.  Looks much better than a lot of the C->z80 converters in from awhile ago.

Was never really good at C to be able to set up a dev environment on my own.  Hopefully Nspire programming will reach the same level as 68k but it's sad to hear the news concerning TiLP and TIGCC/GCC4TI.  If there's one thing I like about Nspire, it has a nice big screen unlike z80 calcs >.<  so few pixels! so hard to make decent looking 16x16 bw people sprites!

As for TI cutting RAM, I almost can't blame them after spending so much time processing silicon wafers by hand. 

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2010, 08:06:57 pm »
One issue with C is that it was apparently not suitable for z80 platforms. Writing a good C compiler was apparently very hard . Same for Java. It was much easier for someone to make a brand new language, or something that looks similar to BASIC but is rather simple in syntax so it can be compiled easier. Btw did you see the Axe Tribute video? Altough more have been shown since then, the video already shows a lot of Axe stuff. I myself have been working on a game called Supersonic Ball in the projects/ideas section which has parralax scrolling.

If you check ticalc.org featured programs for the last 7 months, you'll notice there are more so far than the first 7 months of 2008 and 2009 combined and I think more than 2006 and 2007 if I remember. Cemetech and Omni activity picked up, TI-BASIC Developper is slowly doing the same since the past month or so and TI-BANK has been picking up for at least 2 years. The only downside is that ticalc.org traffic did not rise that much and a lot of other forums were nearly left abandonned by their admins (altough some were hit by situations similar to KK but to a lower extent, causing some ppl to migrate elsewhere) and it caused them to spiral downwards while other sites spirals upwards.

In other words, the TI community in general is picking up again, but it would be much better if we had Ndless 2.0, even if it only supported OS 1.7, which is installable on the clickpad Nspires which are still for sale atm

Offline TC01

  • LV6 Super Member (Next: 500)
  • ******
  • Posts: 344
  • Rating: +9/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 10:02:04 pm »
There is apparently a C compiler for the Z80 that supports Z80 calculators, z88dk (I found it when I was reading through the newsletter archives on ticalc.org- it was in the second-to-last one). Here is a link to their forums... I presume some people already know about this, but others might not. I didn't.

Apparently it's not too efficient or easy to use- and most of the posts in the "TI Calculators forum" are bug reports- and they don't have anyone working on the project at the moment who actually owns the calculators. But it appears to still be in active development- last release was in 2009.



The userbars in my sig are links embedded links.

And in addition to calculator (and Python!) stuff, I mod Civilization 4 (frequently with Python).

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 10:20:08 pm »
I heard it produced inneficient code, as did SDCC. I never used them, though, so I cannot judge myself.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 10:21:20 pm by DJ Omnimaga »

Offline Lionel Debroux

  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2135
  • Rating: +290/-45
    • View Profile
    • TI-Chess Team
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2010, 12:41:57 pm »
Indeed, unlike the 68k ISA (which was designed for C programming), the Z80 ISA is not well adapted to C programming. All C compilers targetting the Z80 ISA make a rather laughable job compared to what ASM programmers can do.
Member of the TI-Chess Team.
Co-maintainer of GCC4TI (GCC4TI online documentation), TILP and TIEmu.
Co-admin of TI-Planet.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2010, 12:56:08 pm »
What does ISA means? I checked Google and all I got was stuff about old graphic cards and international societies/studies/etc

Offline Lionel Debroux

  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2135
  • Rating: +290/-45
    • View Profile
    • TI-Chess Team
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2010, 01:01:08 pm »
In this context, I meant Instruction Set Architecture. But ISA also means, between other things, "Industry Standard Architecture", an old bus used in old PCs, before PCI, and later AGP and PCI-Express :)
Member of the TI-Chess Team.
Co-maintainer of GCC4TI (GCC4TI online documentation), TILP and TIEmu.
Co-admin of TI-Planet.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2010, 01:08:36 pm »
Aaaah ok, thanks for the info :)

I assume the fact C compilers are hard on z80 is because it's a 8 bit processor, right?

Offline Lionel Debroux

  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2135
  • Rating: +290/-45
    • View Profile
    • TI-Chess Team
Re: Status of Nspire programming?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2010, 01:17:24 pm »
It's not only because of that, AFAICT. But someone more knowledgeable with the Z80 ISA would have a more useful POV than mine here.
Member of the TI-Chess Team.
Co-maintainer of GCC4TI (GCC4TI online documentation), TILP and TIEmu.
Co-admin of TI-Planet.