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Quote from: Stefan Bauwens on May 21, 2013, 02:38:20 pm

If there is a God, don't you think it would be logic that he wants His creation to do what He wants, and that they love Him(like He loves them) out of free will.

The logic doesn't take place here. Would it be logic that the powerfull God give to humans his only son, and that his really loved son let himself be crucified? No. It doesn't make sense to give such a present to humans who are filled of evil. The reason of that : his infinite love.

Quote from: Stefan Bauwens on May 21, 2013, 02:38:20 pm

You can't expect God to come to everybody every generation again to prove His existence. That would make him mad. Jesus said to Thomas, since he didn't believe he had raised from the dead before seeing Him(John 20:29):
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

His coming in the past wasn't a proof at all, because he appeared resurrected to only a few people.

Well, I guess that the logic is that He loves us unconditionally. But I see your point, since it doesn't sound logic to nonbelievers.

Well, it was a "proof" for Thomas at least.

Quote from: ElementCoder on May 21, 2013, 03:05:42 pm

Let me rephrase myself. First of all I'm a science man, so this discussion will certainly call off (possibly big) conflicts/disagreements.
 Science is there to uncover the 'truth' of our universe.

Science won't call off "conflicts/disagreements". But you put clear that "Science is there to uncover the 'truth' of our universe". Moreover, the universe created by God, according to the religion.

I made a big typo here, apologies. I meant that the discussions between science and religion tend never to end well.

In science, all proof is based on what we think is true. A lot of the theories in science either have their proof based on other theories, or just seem to 'work' in formulas, but aren't fully proven. When you look at it that way, you can see science as a religion, in which you have to believe in the not (fully) proven theories, and in the mathematics that connects and 'proves' those theories.
Science is the religion for people who want evidence. For those who want to know the math behind everything, to be able to predict what is going to happen in certain scenarios.
Believing in one or multiple gods/godesses is the religion for those who don't need to know how everything works. It's for the people who want to see the spiritual parts of life, which is a thing science has no answers for.
And when it comes to explaining our existance, both are pretty much a tie. Anyone who believes in a god can tell you how his god created the world with everything that lives on it, just like any scientist can tell you abouth how the big bang created our universe, to which earth belongs. But ask a religious person what everything looked like before there was a god, and how the god was created, they won't be able to give a good answer. Just like scientists can't tell you what everythink looked like before the big bang, or what triggered the big bang.
Probably the main difference between science and religion is that science has some applications in our current lives, while religion is often mostly based on the afterlife.
A very important question that you might want to ask yourself is: What are you looking for: the spiritual part of life, or the mathematics behind life?

But it doesn't mather whether you put your faith in religion or in science. Let's just all try to be good people.

In science, all proof is based on what we think is true. A lot of the theories in science either have their proof based on other theories, or just seem to 'work' in formulas, but aren't fully proven. When you look at it that way, you can see science as a religion, in which you have to believe in the not (fully) proven theories, and in the mathematics that connects and 'proves' those theories.

Nope, simply because religions and sciences are not in contradiction. Sciences and religions are not at all the same thing.

how the god was created, they won't be able to give a good answer."

because God wasn't created as I said. :p

Probably the main difference between science and religion is that science has some applications in our current lives, while religion is often mostly based on the afterlife.

Religion is not only based on the afterlife. It does have applications on the present.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't really think of an application of religion in our present lives.

One of many examples : christian's religion says to love our neighbours. And you can also think about La croix rouge.

But religion is at least partially directed at the afterlife, while science stops at death.

I agree on this point.

Personally, I believe in science. I believe that the big bang created the universe, and that humans evolved from other live forms. It just seems the most logical to me. And what has triggered the big bang? We'll never know. It's one of the mysteries of life, a gap that science will never be able to fill.
The idea that a god creates everything feels more like moving the problem. The fact that you just have to believe that He always existed, and that he is a creature so advanced that he can create everything doensn't sound logical to me, but I guess the big bang doesn't sound logical to a religious person either.
I find it easier to believe that an explosion suddenly started to exist than that a creature so advanced as a god suddenly started to exist and createdeverything. But it all comes to your point of view. There is now way to prove for the other parties that you are correct. Because there are hundreds of religions (let's just count science as one for now), the chance that you are fully correct is very small. That is why we should respect anyone who shooses an other religion as you.

It does not mean anything to "believe in science". Science isn't a religion. You can believe in God and pratice science, there's no problem for that.
When you're speaking about logic, what is logic about the big bang the appears from nowhere ? It's impossible, it must have an origin. Nothing can be its own origine. Another point: believing in God is not like loto to play for chance.

In order for me to believe something, I require evidence; that's just how my mind works.

I would not say that evolution and Christianity are equal in that they both are believed in by faith. Evolution is not blind faith; there is massive support and evidence for it.
Fine, evolution is a theory, but people often misinterpret "theory" for just a guess. A scientific theory actually very comprehensive and is tested and confirmed repeatedly. There is tons of evidence for evolution that can be seen in both living and dead creatures.

Also, theists frequently say that there must be a first cause to start everything, so therefore it must be God.
Even if there is some supernatural creator to set the universe in motion, how do you know that it is the Christian god? It could be any other supernatural being.
I also find that this is somewhat saying, "Science doesn't know, therefore God."
If we don't know something, it isn't very reasonable to conclude that it must be because of God. I'd instead rather search harder and attempt to find an explanation that can actually be supported.

Even if an explanation can never be found by science, I'd rather leave that gap of knowledge empty as opposed to filling it with religion

Just popping in the topic for a second, God and science aren't mutually exclusive.

I saw this thread and I knew I had to jump in.
I have an intersting relligious development in my 16 years of life.  When I was a wee little lad, my brother and I used to blame all the bad things on "God and Jesus".  We used to say it was all their fault.  As we grew older we went through a super religious phase.  Now that I'm older, I am agnostic, not atheist, but agnostic.  I find the concept of religion to be annoying, but Chrisitanity by far really upsets me.  As a generalization, Christians believe that they are the only religion and that all other religions are completely false.  They feel they will be the ones to live while everyone else suffers in H E double hockey sticks.  Zero tolerance...
At Muslims have some sort of respect for Christianity because of the same sort of belief in one supreme being.

Religion in general, however, is silly.  We use it like myths to explain things we really can't.  We use it only when it suits us and when we feel like we need something to make us feel better.  Also, I feel that all religions are false.  They have no truth in them at all.  My opinion on death might seem... strange, however.  To me death is death.  I do not fear death because its not like after you die you're gonna be all upset that you're dead right? (Yeah that's pretty bad...)  It just happens, there's no afterlife just an end.