Author Topic: Religion Discussion  (Read 57820 times)

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Offline Stefan Bauwens

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #120 on: May 24, 2013, 03:32:35 pm »
Those arguments are kinda flawed(in the link you gave) and I probably could discuss everyone, but I will not waste my time on doing so. I also can see that the author has little understanding of interpreting the Bible and is not reading but looking for things that look like contradictions.


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Offline Hayleia

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #121 on: May 24, 2013, 03:46:41 pm »
Those arguments are kinda flawed(in the link you gave) and I probably could discuss everyone, but I will not waste my time on doing so. I also can see that the author has little understanding of interpreting the Bible and is not reading but looking for things that look like contradictions.
This "this argument is kinda flawed but I won't say why" argument is kinda flawed but I won't say why :P

You are right when you say that the author found contradictions because he looked for them, and that could apply to anything. But on the other hand, maybe you only see the truth in that book because you were told beforehand that it was the truth so you believed it and only saw truth in it. So yeah, I can't prove you are wrong, neither can I prove the author of the list of contradictions is right, but same, you can't say you are right and the author is wrong ;)
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Offline Stefan Bauwens

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #122 on: May 24, 2013, 03:48:21 pm »
Those arguments are kinda flawed(in the link you gave) and I probably could discuss everyone, but I will not waste my time on doing so. I also can see that the author has little understanding of interpreting the Bible and is not reading but looking for things that look like contradictions.
This "this argument is kinda flawed but I won't say why" argument is kinda flawed but I won't say why :P

You are right when you say that the author found contradictions because he looked for them, and that could apply to anything. But on the other hand, maybe you only see the truth in that book because you were told beforehand that it was the truth so you believed it and only saw truth in it. So yeah, I can't prove you are wrong, neither can I prove the author of the list of contradictions is right, but same, you can't say you are right and the author is wrong ;)
I guess I can't prove it, no. (Unless I take that article under hands, but I don't wanna waste my time)


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Offline shmibs

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #123 on: May 24, 2013, 03:58:04 pm »
how would it be a waste of your time to study the book that you believe holds the world's ultimate truths?

as for myself, it was studying the bible that led me to stop believing in it. i started out reading it believing exactly as you do, but, the more i read, the more obvious it seemed that it was not a contiguous whole but rather a big jumble of contradictory writings from hundreds of different authors. the jesus portrayed in the gospels is completely unlike the jesus described by his self-proclaimed disciple, paul. similarly, the world described in the old testament (complete with the Hades like She'ol etcetera) is completely unlike the one described by jesus, which, in turn is completely unlike the one described by paul, which, in turn, is completely unlike the one described by the catholic church and so on. there are little things all throughout as well, like jesus claiming that he would return before the last of his 12 disciples had died, that just don't work.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 04:04:33 pm by shmibs »

Offline Stefan Bauwens

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #124 on: May 24, 2013, 04:02:07 pm »
how would it be a waste of your time to study the book that you believe holds the world's ultimate truths?
No, that's not it. It would be a waste of time defending, and proving that guy wrong since it's just a lot of work that most likely nobody will care about anyway. I've fallen into those "traps" before, and when I'm done they just ignore it or something.


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Offline shmibs

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2013, 04:07:29 pm »
again, how is it a trap if all it's asking of you is to actually look at the book you profess to believe. have you ever read the thing straight through, from cover to cover? i've done so ~6 times, along with intensive studies with churches, youth groups, and religious camps with protestants, mormons, catholics, and even the eastern orthodox church (the amount of incense burned by the latter left me coughing up phlegm for a week)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 04:08:26 pm by shmibs »

Offline ben_g

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2013, 04:38:04 pm »
It is a bit off-topic, but I would like to bring it to attention that the post rating system is meant only for the quality of the posts. Reading trough this thread, I get the feeling that the upvoting and downvoting buttons are sometimes used to express wether or not you agree with the opinions in the posts. Especially posts written by a religious persons seem to have a much lower avarage rating that posts made by a scientific person.
It might be just a coincidence, but I just wanted to point this out.
[/off-topic]

To make this post not completely off-topic, I'll add a relevant statement:
We have already discussed wether or not God exists, and while it's true that the arguments given by the believers are a bit vague, it does not actually seem that important if He is real or not. You might become a better person by just believing in Him, and your belief in Him can also add a lot of mental support. And almost all religious persons agree that God doesn't influence our lives (directly). So, does it realy matter that much that He exists or not?
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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2013, 09:30:01 pm »
When you consider the amount of time and other resources spent on religion and how it directly (and indirectly) influences the lives of billions of people through its influence on political ideology, then yes I say it's very important to decide whether He exists or not. (Although I guess it's more important to decide whether the holy scripts are true or not)

Offline jwalker

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2013, 10:24:24 pm »
how would it be a waste of your time to study the book that you believe holds the world's ultimate truths?

as for myself, it was studying the bible that led me to stop believing in it. i started out reading it believing exactly as you do, but, the more i read, the more obvious it seemed that it was not a contiguous whole but rather a big jumble of contradictory writings from hundreds of different authors. the jesus portrayed in the gospels is completely unlike the jesus described by his self-proclaimed disciple, paul. similarly, the world described in the old testament (complete with the Hades like She'ol etcetera) is completely unlike the one described by jesus, which, in turn is completely unlike the one described by paul, which, in turn, is completely unlike the one described by the catholic church and so on. there are little things all throughout as well, like jesus claiming that he would return before the last of his 12 disciples had died, that just don't work.

I myself have actually read the bible multiple times, and I think anyone who is Christian should because frankly almost no one knows anything about their faith. First, would you point out where Jesus said that he would return before the last of his 12 disciples died, for I don't remember that. The Hell described by Jesus is like the Hell described by the Catholic Church, at least as far as I know.
Now about Paul...
Paul was born a Roman and had until he suddenly turned to Jesus, after Jesus's death, and was raised in that culture. Paul was Jewish, but his family were Roman citizens.  He brought a lot of that culture in with him and his teachings reflect that. You will also notice that he was at odds with Peter at times. How Paul described Jesus is different from the disciples who wrote the Gospels because he never was actually with Jesus.
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Offline shmibs

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #129 on: May 25, 2013, 12:10:58 am »
yes, i know paul's story. it's said that he murdered christians up until when he was met on the road to damascus by the image of jesus, scolded ("whatever you have done against them has been done against me as well"), struck blind. he then repented, had his eyesight restored via ananias, and set off to convert all the gentiles. the next several years are a group of exciting adventures, hanging out with his buddy luke the doctor and protege titus, visiting towns and speaking out against idols, being thrown into prison and released via earthquake, escaping from a town in a wicker basket, shouting at peter about having people circumcised, writing half of the new testament in the form of letters to church plants all around the mediterranean, etc. eventually, he got it in his head that he had to go convert the emperor, nero, so he set off on a journey,was shipwrecked on the island of malta, was bitten by a poisonous snake and did not die, arrived in rome, was placed under house arrest for several years (during which time he wrote more letters), and then was killed.

paul also made up (or at least propogated) a good deal of doctrine that jesus did not (in the gospels, at least). things like "being saved by faith alone" (jesus preaches a message of good works. "you must take up your cross and follow me.", "give up your riches and your pride, or you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven", "if something is keeping you from following me and doing as i do, cut it off and throw it away, for it is better to go to heaven without that thing than to be thrown into hell with it", etc).

oh, by the way, the only times that the word "hell" is used in the gospels is in reference to being sent there when doing something bad (Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:29, Matthew 10:28, Matthew 18:9, Matthew 23:15, Matthew 23:33, Mark 9:43 and following, Luke 12:5. it never once says what "hell" actually is.

as for jesus saying he would return before all his disciples had died, see Matthew 16:28. jesus is talking to his disciples and telling them how they should act in his absence and then tells them, explicitely, that he will be back to initiate his kingdom before the last of them is dead.

this is all from the standard, protestant-approved version of the bible, of course, because i don't have any others with me and don't know any of the other flavours (catholic version, which includes macabees etcetera). in reference to that, there were a myriad of different gospels, "first hand accounts", and doctrines introduced in the early days of the church, and it wasn't until The Ecumenical Councils (particularly the First Council of Nicea) that the church officially decided upon what was to be truth and what thrown out as heresy, in the process introducing quite a bit of new doctrine that had been invented since those early books had been written.



When you consider the amount of time and other resources spent on religion and how it directly (and indirectly) influences the lives of billions of people through its influence on political ideology, then yes I say it's very important to decide whether He exists or not. (Although I guess it's more important to decide whether the holy scripts are true or not)

there is actually a fairly strong argument for the existence of religion being a positive influence on the world. yes, you can say whatever you like about crusades etc, but the primary driving factor behind those is always humans desiring for power or being bigotted against others, with their religions being used as a convenient excuse to continue acting that way. they would act out against their fellow humans regardless. yes, it may be true that it exacerbates it in some situations, but it's also true that religion is a calming, comforting influence in the lives of billions. studies have consistently shown that people who are able to convince themselves of the validity of some religion that offers a promise of an "ultimate purpose" for their lives are, on average, happier people than those who cannot.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 12:17:30 am by shmibs »

Offline jwalker

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #130 on: May 25, 2013, 01:16:34 am »
The passage is this: "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." New International Version (©2011)

I wasn't sure which one to choose, because there are so many translations. On a side note, they really should get rid of all the different translations, go back into the scripture, retranslate it, and have the one and only bible. Having 10000 versions only adds to peoples confusion.
It looks like he is saying this to his apostles, but he could have been talking about the human race. It looks like he could have been talking to his apostles, in which case it is true. John did not die a martyrs death and "saw Jesus coming in his kingdom", he wrote the Book of Revelation, which is about Jesus's second coming based on what had been revealed to him, before he died.

EDIT: Added more about Paul, Hell
He didn't shout at Peter over circumcision, It was because Peter wouldn't eat with gentiles for not strictly following Jewish customs, which is much wider than circumcision alone. He also didn't go to convert the Emperor, but tried to use his right as a Roman citizen to appeal what he was being charged with.
He did say that you could get into heaven on faith alone, and this is why protestants teach this.
A lot of what Paul did was try and convert gentiles, and as he didn't walk with Jesus, he probably taught some things differently than what Jesus said. Even though of this, how he converted is very interesting.

It is obvious what hell is, from even what is described there in the passages that you provided. Also I believe there are references to hell in the old testament, but I would rather not look those up right now, as it is late.
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Offline shmibs

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #131 on: May 25, 2013, 02:02:03 am »
you are taking that verse entirely out of context. the situation in the passage is that jesus is speaking directly to his apostles, telling them what to do when he has physically left their presence. he then follows that direction immediately with the promise that he will return before they have all died. also, the john who wrote the book of revelation is not the john you think he is, but, rather, john of patmos. lastly, if you want to bring revelation into this, it is a book widely regarded as not being about some far distant future, but about christianity's persecution at the hand of Rome. see Revelation 17. Rome is traditionally called "Babylon" and "The city of seven hills", was the seat of the greatest empire that europe has ever known, was notorious for its lavishness and sexual promiscuity, and was a place where christians were killed in various brutal manners on a large scale in an attempt to eradicate them entirely ("I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.").

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #132 on: May 25, 2013, 02:02:06 am »
We can't go back to an original version and simply re-translate it for several reasons. Perhaps most importantly, we don't have any of the original manuscripts! The earliest writings we have of the New Testament are from the first or second century and the Old testament is largely derived from oral tradition, meaning the original sources were never even written down. Also, no one has reached a conclusion about how to interpret significant portions of the Bible. That alone accounts for many of the different sects of Christianity. Similarly, translating itself is a very error-prone process. There really AREN'T perfect translations from the various languages of the Bible into modern English.
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Offline Scipi

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #133 on: May 25, 2013, 04:51:50 am »
It is obvious what hell is, from even what is described there in the passages that you provided. Also I believe there are references to hell in the old testament, but I would rather not look those up right now, as it is late.

Hell was actually portrayed originally as a dark, Hades-like place where everyone was cast in an eternal sleep. It wasn't a place of punishment, but more like a place of imprisonment. Which would make sense, as it would have derived from Greek and Roman cultures which were the two dominant in the area.

Hell itself is not accurately described. There are a few (reeally vague) passages, but the idea of Hell as an inferno was popularized by works like Dante's Inferno. In the US it was popularized by Jonathan Edward's sermons who was Puritan.

However, I really like what this guy has to say on it, and his theory of what Hell actually is, should it exist.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?85849-Hell-does-not-exist-according-to-the-bible!

Not a place of punishment, actually nonexistence.

Also, I think this is relevant to this thread, surprised I haven't seen it in here yet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Can't say it was necessary of him to do so, I but I suppose I can appreciate it as a warm gesture, nonetheless.

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Offline mdr1

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Re: Religion Discussion
« Reply #134 on: May 25, 2013, 08:02:31 am »
I'm not sure where you are going with Jesus and his apostles.
Très bien, je n'ai pas réussi à m'exprimer en anglais, alors je vais le faire en français en espérant que tu connaisses cette langue et que cela te permette de mieux comprendre. Le cas non échéant, cela aidera peut-être d'autres personnes.

Ce que je voulais dire était que l'existence de Dieu n'est pas qu'une simple éventualité comme une autre, que pourrait formuler un gamin de 5 ans en inventant son propre monde. Ce n'est pas une simple théorie abstraite sans fait. C'est bien plus que cela. Ce n'est pas pour rien que Jésus a donné sa vie sur la croix, il fallait réellement une force d'amour gigantesque pour être capable de pardonner ses propres persécuteurs pendant même qu'ils effectuaient leur besogne. Il lui fallait une force d'amour immense pour convertir Simon qui autrefois persécutait les croyants en Pierre, qui a ensuite été persécuté à son tour et tué. L'expansion de la Bonne Nouvelle dès la résurrection s'est faite à une telle vitesse que l'on ne peut considérer cela comme anodin. Les premiers chrétiens persécutés tenaient nettement mieux que la moyenne et étaient animés d'un amour fou. Libre à chacun de croire bien évidemment, mais tout ça pour dire que le catholicisme est plus qu'une simple éventualité que les hommes ont inventé.


as for myself, it was studying the bible that led me to stop believing in it. i started out reading it believing exactly as you do, but, the more i read, the more obvious it seemed that it was not a contiguous whole but rather a big jumble of contradictory writings from hundreds of different authors. the jesus portrayed in the gospels is completely unlike the jesus described by his self-proclaimed disciple, paul. similarly, the world described in the old testament (complete with the Hades like She'ol etcetera) is completely unlike the one described by jesus, which, in turn is completely unlike the one described by paul, which, in turn, is completely unlike the one described by the catholic church and so on. there are little things all throughout as well, like jesus claiming that he would return before the last of his 12 disciples had died, that just don't work.

Ok, so you didn't understand the main principle of bible as many people, and I'm to try to make you understand. ;)
In fact, the bible is a love story between humans and God. In the old testament, God is described by humans, and not God himself. Humans didn't understand well who God really was and for example associated diseases as a punishment given by God. As a case in point, when Adam and Eve left the garden of eden, God didn't excluded them, but they excluded themselves with their sins refusing to show themselves nude in front of God. But then Jesus came on the Earth to have a human communication and to change ideas about God. He didn't yell he was the son of God, that God was a good one and that romans were villains, but he made disciples understand by his being, his actions, and his parables. It would have been too brutal for humans to reveal them explicitly the truth. They had to understand progressively with heart. Then apostles translated love of God and how He changed their lifes. If you want to understand bible, you have to read it that way: with heart.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 08:03:22 am by mdr1 »