Author Topic: The Origin of Evil  (Read 3460 times)

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Offline Zera

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The Origin of Evil
« on: March 15, 2010, 10:37:31 am »
This is something of a random discourse. If walls of text aren't really your thing, then I'm sure this will bore you to tears.

First off, this isn't intended to elicit sympathy or serve as my emotional blog, nor to cause offense to anyone or their particular system of belief. I wanted to approach this from a philosophical perspective, because it's something that inspires many of my creative works. Before I get into the heart of the subject, I want to elaborate on a few finer details about my perspective on a few things...

I do not consider myself at all religious. I was raised by a religious family within a religious environment, and abandoned those beliefs when I was a teenager. I consider myself a man of science. I try to reason in accordance with the scientific method, and through the use of critical reasoning skills. I have an analytical nature, so I have a need to examine details under a cold and stringent scope. This often leads me to reject most common conclusions and ideas, and either adopt no position on some subject or matter due to my own lack of knowledge, or to study it until I feel satisfied enough with what I've learned to form a conclusion. I tend not to think in emotional terms most of the time. It's difficult for me to approach things from intuition or feeling. I have to find some logical process in it.

One notion I have rejected is that of free will. I don't believe that individuals can solely govern their own choices and actions. This level of freedom would completely defy logic, as is implies itself to be independent of causal influence. i.e., I don't eat because I choose to eat - I eat because I am hungry. Hunger is the causal influence driving my decision-making process. Were it not for the need to consume food in order to survive, the thought of consumption would never enter into my mind as a random desire. As such, I equally believe that people cannot be held responsible for their actions - whether morally, legally, philosophically, or however else. Each action is driven by some influence, or accumulation thereof.

If the world were duplicated, and the circumstances of your life were repeated in this duplicate world in perfect detail, how would the choices in your life between worlds A and B compare? Would and could your duplicate self make different choices in lieu of every circumstance and detail being the same? I don't believe so. Perhaps that implies some random logic. Even in technology, there is no such thing as computational randomness. The generation of a "random" integer depends on a formula, as well as existing conditions. The outcome can be determined by examining those conditions, and how their influence does, in fact, create a predetermined outcome. For all intent and purpose, there is the illusion of having generated a random value.

When you examine behavioral psychology, you see equally influential patterns. For instance: There are clear causes of mental illness, whether environmental or chemical. Understanding the patterns behind these illnesses is necessary in order to treat them. When you examine criminal psychology, these patterns are more or less the same. There is a history of mental illness; depression, schizophrenia; childhood abuse, etc. We can often, accurately, conclude that these are the catalysts that drive people to criminal behavior; yet we also uphold the notion of personal responsibility for one's actions within the appeal to justice. In the U.S., we even go as far as to enforce capital punishment for particularly heinous crimes.

This brings me to the origin of "evil." Evil is often defined as the intention to bring harm to others, either as a means of personal gratification, or for one's own lack of moral and empathic cohesion. Some people might also define evil as anything that does not adhere to their own values or beliefs. "Evil" is, naturally, relative to one's perspective and opinion. Throughout my life, I have dealt with many people whom I would consider "evil," but I do not believe in evil in the classical sense of moral absolutes, or black-and-white extremes.

As a child, both of my parents were physically and emotionally abusive. For the longest time, I did not understand why. At first, I always assured myself that it wasn't my fault, and both of them were simply evil and misguided people. Later on in life, I struggled to maintain my confidence and self-esteem in light of bullying throughout school years. I developed a severe mistrust of other people, leading me to the belief that all human life was without value or purpose. I spent years in withdrawal, because I felt certain that other people would try to harm me if didn't maintain a certain distance from them. There was a time when anger, regret, shame and frustration had consummated into such a powerful force that I could have been compelled to harm other people without any remorse for my actions. I often had violent thought about mutilation, torture and suicide. I was completely imprisoned by these emotions, and incapable of acting competently.

The only thing that spared me from spiraling further into depression was, in fact, my analytical nature. At some point, I had a gradual revelation about moral absolutes, and relativism. I slowly abandoned every belief and conception I had about my life, human nature and the totality of existence in general. I came to believe that this life was void of any distinct purpose, and that nothing any person has done or expressed possessed any concrete value. For a time, it was depressing; but the emptiness gradually became a liberation from all oppressive emotion - like a black hole, drawing everything into its event horizon. The emotions and perceptions that hindered me in everyday aspects of life slowly wore-off, as I no longer believed in the values I once placed in everyday things. For instance: It was difficult for me to pursue a project or an interest, for fear of failure and humiliation. Because I had been so discouraged by the events and circumstances of my life, I had not possessed confidence in myself or my abilities. By stepping back and looking at a situation without attaching any value to it, I was able to approach it without hindering myself. I came to learn that the values and emotions I attached to objects, people and myself were the only real cause of my torment. With time, I began to reject the values and emotions that other people directed at me, as well. By not internalizing these things, I could not become a prisoner within my own mind.

This is what I have come to know as evil: The negative forces that exist within our own minds. When negative emotions come into our lives, they can easily spin out of control. Before we know it, these emotions have completely enslaved us, and begin driving us toward destructive behaviors. In my creative works, I refer to this force as "The Abyss." It is a nebulous gorge of negative thoughts and emotions whose depth is defined only by the limits of the minds it exists within. Those who are drawn into the belly of The Abyss must look beyond its influence, or meet an assured destruction. The Abyss is the origin of all evil things, and it so shall exist as long as it can perpetuate itself through human action. Each negative action influences the next, allowing The Abyss to expand and spread throughout the hearts of mankind. In my stories, this is the governing force of all evil characters.

I believe there is also a central good that exists and perpetuates itself in the same manner; but its influence is much weaker. Only by some predestined force or influence can a person overcome The Abyss and envelope themselves in good. Because both forces exist within us simultaneously, there is no absolute path of good or evil. It is a war that is indefinitely fought within us, until we arrive at the end of this existence with either force in greater quantity. In my creative works, even the good characters struggle to overcome the forces that attempt to draw them closer toward The Abyss: Vengeance, personal loss, doubt, regret, the desire for power... Some characters succumb to these influences, and quickly find themselves dying at the hands of their former comrades.

I consider myself lucky to have been spared from spiraling further into these influences; but I also feel I should be in the debt of other people whose circumstances prevent them from overcoming them. I could have been born into their circumstances, and repeated the same mistakes they've made. Any of us could have. This is the nature of causal existence. For this reason, I find it difficult to see the logic in justice or vengeance. This is, in fact, a strong theme in Escheron. Maya's family is ruthlessly slaughtered to further the military power of a neighboring kingdom, and her desire to pursue vengeance only draws her further into a prison fashioned by her own negative emotions. In the end, what can Maya achieve by trying to surmount hate and destruction with more hate and destruction? Without realizing it, she has been seeing the world from the perspective of evil all along.

This sums-up my thoughts on the nature of evil, personal responsibility and the direction of life in general. (as well as some backstory for my creativity)

Offline trevmeister66

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Re: The Origin of Evil
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2010, 12:13:41 pm »
While I do agree with much of what you said, I feel like people do have the option to make their own decisions and choice, BUT I feel like what you said does apply to the majority of people who do anything, "good" or "bad".

You mentioned the example about eating when you're hungry, not because you randomly felt like eating. I feel like people still have to choice to do what they want and/or need to do, regardless of what their body or mind says. I say this from personal experience because I'm in the military, and we have to make certain decisions, like whether or not to eat this food when our body tells us it's hungry. What I'm getting at is that people can have the power to put their body needs aside and put whatever else first. I kind of feel like my point is coming across the way I want it too, but oh well.

All in all, I do agree with the majority of your "wall of text". Very well thought out.
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Offline jsj795

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Re: The Origin of Evil
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2010, 02:03:47 pm »
I won't be surprised to see a news headline with your name on about the new philosophical views o.O

I really learned a lot from your perspective. I consider myself Christian, but that doesn't mean that your values can't be incorporated into my Christian view. The Abyss in my point of view is Sin, and each sinful act you do will enslave you to more sinful acts. I also tend to be analytical, and scientific, and I always had this Science vs. Theology mind. Whenever I found conflicts between Church's teachings and the Science Class's teachings (which do happen a lot) I tried to find the reasonable and logical answers, not just merely faith. However, most of the time, I could not find answers but I think your views answered many of my questions, and I really do thank you that you shared this with the rest of us.

This kind of philosophical view really reminded me of Neo Genesis Evangelion, where Shinji, the main character, constantly struggles with himself about the human nature, relationships between people, and their conflicts and pains.


Spoiler For funny life mathematics:
1. ROMANCE MATHEMATICS
Smart man + smart woman = romance
Smart man + dumb woman = affair
Dumb man + smart woman = marriage
Dumb man + dumb woman = pregnancy
2. OFFICE ARITHMETIC
Smart boss + smart employee = profit
Smart boss + dumb employee = production
Dumb boss + smart employee = promotion
Dumb boss + dumb employee = overtime
3. SHOPPING MATH
A man will pay $2 for a $1 item he needs.
A woman will pay $1 for a $2 item that she doesn't need.
4. GENERAL EQUATIONS & STATISTICS
A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband.
A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife.
A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend.
A successful woman is one who can find such a man.
5. HAPPINESS
To be happy with a man, you must understand him a lot and love him a little.
To be happy with a woman, you must love her a lot and not try to understand her at all.
6. LONGEVITY
Married men live longer than single men do, but married men are a lot more willing to die.
7. PROPENSITY TO CHANGE
A woman marries a man expecting he will change, but he doesn't.
A man marries a woman expecting that she won't change, and she does.
8. DISCUSSION TECHNIQUE
A woman has the last word in any argument.
Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument.

Girls = Time * Money (Girls are a combination of time and money)
Time = Money (Time is money)
Girls = Money squared (So, girls are money squared)
Money = sqrt(Evil) (Money is also the root of all evil)
Girls = sqrt(Evil) squared (So, girls are the root of all evil squared)
Girls = Evil (Thus, girls are evil)
*Girls=Evil credit goes to Compynerd255*

Offline Radical Pi

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Re: The Origin of Evil
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2010, 04:16:03 pm »
Ooh boy, a philosophical topic :)

Unlike you, I do believe in some kind of free will, but as you stated, our actions are certainly influenced by our biological drives. IMO, the question "Can free will exist?" is exactly the same as the question "Does there exist a future that, if someone saw it and learned his own future actions from it, that person could NOT still act on his knowledge of his yet-to-happen actions in order to completely change them?" That might not be worded very well, so I'll give an example. Suppose I see my own future, and in it I'm a used car salesman. Certainly I can act on that knowledge; with my supposed future in mind, let's say I fight against it and become a farmer. There, future changed. But my question is this: is there a future that I could see that I couldn't break away from? It's hard to imagine such a future. And if indeed no such future exists, then I believe that this proves that free will does in fact exist.

I think I see some contradictions in the rest of your viewpoints as well (I may just be misinterpreting though, so correct me if I'm wrong). You seemed to have adopted a fairly nihilistic worldview after your epiphany. But then you went on to define 'evil' and to a lesser degree 'good' as well. As a nihilist, I do not believe that good or evil exist. Even if they did exist, there could be no proper definition for them because morality is always relative. Then again, your definition of 'evil' seems to have a different nature entirely than most purely philosophical definitions of it. And honestly, I think your definition works much better on a practical level than a philosopher's. But a problem arises when you need to define the 'negative forces' that define your 'evil'; what exactly makes something negative? This, too, is primarily a subjective matter, and therefore even with your definition, most people might not see themselves as 'evil' whereas to someone else, they are.

As for religion, well, I'll keep this short as to not offend anyone (apologies in advance if I do anyway)... I'm utterly faithless. Agnostic, most people would say. I believe that atheism and theism each requires a similar amount of faith ("There IS for sure a God" vs "There IS for sure NOT a God"), so I have adopted pure religious agnosticism so I don't contradict any of my other beliefs.

One last thing before I forget, I do find The Abyss an interesting concept; it's a metaphor that can be easily applied to any person--- wait, no--- anything at all, living or not, as long as it has some kind of system of morality and can be corrupted.

Just my thoughts on the matter
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Offline Zera

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Re: The Origin of Evil
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2010, 01:15:17 am »
Quote
Unlike you, I do believe in some kind of free will

I'm not sure what quantum phenomena has to do with free will. My thoughts on the subject are that our understanding of quantum physics is still in its stages of infancy. I believe there is still some underlying causal force involved, regardless of whether we are currently able to observe it or not.

Either way, the existence of probabilities (within quantum physics) does not relate in any way to our understanding of the human mind. How are you correlating the two? Even if probabilities existed, we cannot then assume the same can be applied to human psychology, as well. It may be easier to maintain the illusion of free will, in that we often to refer to our actions as choices, and assume personal responsibility therein; but behind the scenes, we're being lead down an inexorable path that remains beyond our direct control.

Quote
Suppose I see my own future, and in it I'm a used car salesman. Certainly I can act on that knowledge; with my supposed future in mind, let's say I fight against it and become a farmer. There, future changed. But my question is this: is there a future that I could see that I couldn't break away from? It's hard to imagine such a future. And if indeed no such future exists, then I believe that this proves that free will does in fact exist.

Prescience would, in itself, be a causal force. If you had the foresight to reasonably know of future outcomes, (or possibly understand them from some probability) then you would adjust your actions and behaviors accordingly.

What you're describing is possibly a predestination paradox, which logically can never happen. That's similar to a scenario where someone travels back in time, warns their former self of an event, and therefore changes the timeline completely. If you succeeded in changing the timeline, then your future self never could have been compelled to travel back in time by the prior causal influences you have just undermined - therefore, the desire to time-travel never entered into your mind in the first place.

Occurance A causally leads to result B
Result B reverses causal influence to nullify occurance A
Therefore, result B is also self-nullifying
Therefore, neither occurance A nor result B existed to begin with
If result B never existed, then result B never could have nullified occurance A, thus never leading to its own self-nullification
Ad infinum

Offline Radical Pi

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Re: The Origin of Evil
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 10:30:35 am »
Quote
Either way, the existence of probabilities (within quantum physics) does not relate in any way to our understanding of the human mind. How are you correlating the two? Even if probabilities existed, we cannot then assume the same can be applied to human psychology, as well. It may be easier to maintain the illusion of free will, in that we often to refer to our actions as choices, and assume personal responsibility therein; but behind the scenes, we're being lead down an inexorable path that remains beyond our direct control.
Quantum randomness implies that true determinism at the very least isn't completely correct, thus allowing free will to exist.

As for your other point, I don't have any counter-responses.
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Offline Zera

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Re: The Origin of Evil
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 01:49:43 pm »
Quantum randomness implies that true determinism at the very least isn't completely correct, thus allowing free will to exist.

Quantum randomness would indeed mean some kind of randomness exists, but how does randomness within microscopic physics relate to the existence of free will in the first place? Is this an implication that free will is driven by random factors? If that is the case, then there is no defined agency of direct control - every decision occurs at random, deterministically, or a combination of both factors. (Compatibalism) The fact would still remain that a person cannot be responsible for his or her actions without having direct influence over those actions. How is this control defined, and where does it come from?

The belief that this kind of personal responsibility exists at all only warps the psychology of the individual, who might feel incompetent because of behavior they are unable to change; such as hard-wired criminal behavior, or destructive behavior stemming from physical and emotional abuse. Why do alcoholics continue to frequent AA meetings and transgress? Why can't some pedophiles overcome their sexual attractions toward children? If these people could make decisions merely by direct control over their cognitive processes, then they wouldn't have to rely on deterministic sciences such as medicine and psychiatry to help them pursue these changes.

I don't condone Fatalism, for that matter; but adopting either extreme would be detrimental. I accept that there are factors of my life I probably can't change, but I also accept that external influences and new knowledge may, causally, enable me to do so one day. To me, this is still not a choice - I was either predestined to arrive at this change, or I wasn't.

Offline Galandros

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Re: The Origin of Evil
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 06:39:07 am »
wow, until know I was feeling like the only human being in the world with so many uncommon ways of thinking. I can guess in my school I am still the only...

But here goes some little questions because I diverge just a little bit.

I don't eat because I choose to eat - I eat because I am hungry. Hunger is the causal influence driving my decision-making process. Were it not for the need to consume food in order to survive, the thought of consumption would never enter into my mind as a random desire. As such, I equally believe that people cannot be held responsible for their actions - whether morally, legally, philosophically, or however else. Each action is driven by some influence, or accumulation thereof.
You need to add explicitly that people cannot be held responsible when the influence is very strong or extreme. Following your example, with just a bit of hunger, normally no one does cannibalism.
Do you think a influence is enough to control totally your actions? Even under the same extreme situations some people act differently.

If the world were duplicated, and the circumstances of your life were repeated in this duplicate world in perfect detail, how would the choices in your life between worlds A and B compare? Would and could your duplicate self make different choices in lieu of every circumstance and detail being the same? I don't believe so. Perhaps that implies some random logic. Even in technology, there is no such thing as computational randomness. The generation of a "random" integer depends on a formula, as well as existing conditions. The outcome can be determined by examining those conditions, and how their influence does, in fact, create a predetermined outcome. For all intent and purpose, there is the illusion of having generated a random value.
This happens only and only if there are no random events. At higher level of things nothing seems random to me. Just the most complex systems seem to have randomness because I can't predict EVERYTHING. But it seems predictable.
But at quantum level, some events, as far as our Physics go, are random.

But in higher scales the random quantum events could be despised? If yes, then our mind is technically deterministic, if not it has some level of randomness, not exactly free will! Note that act randomly is not what you want, is what happens. This is a strange conclusion... I only arrived because of this post.
Adepts of liberalism have a exit to this dilemma? I think I got ahead of you about the free will with this conclusion.

---

That is a good "self-biography" (there is a better term, just can't translate to english) for your creative works.
Actually my life is not as hard and so my thoughts are not as strong as yours. But I, too, tend to think not emotionally but commit the error of trying to think emotionally. I don't have the same conclusions about how to behave as the people around me but I am influenced by them... So I act "normally".

My explanation for evil, non fictional, is the evil part of human nature. Actually basic human nature is not very different from other animals nature.
And our animal nature is due to evolutionism. It is easy to imagine greedier behaviour will lead to better success in life.
But I attribute the good part of our nature to cooperation gained in evolution and society, too.
Simple as that.

And yes, behaviour, personality, psychology, etc. is either passed on DNA and/or learned from the parents/community. I am not sure, but most probably by DNA because of my daily observation: too many parents complain about some traits from the father, for example, even when the father is away since the child was born. Scientific approach can study this and arrive to a conclusion.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 06:40:55 am by Galandros »
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