Author Topic: Unlimited Detail!  (Read 7533 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AngelFish

  • Is this my custom title?
  • Administrator
  • LV12 Extreme Poster (Next: 5000)
  • ************
  • Posts: 3242
  • Rating: +270/-27
  • I'm a Fishbot
    • View Profile
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2011, 04:27:26 pm »
That's not the point. The point is to get better quality than is currently available in games.
∂²Ψ    -(2m(V(x)-E)Ψ
---  = -------------
∂x²        ℏ²Ψ

Offline fb39ca4

  • LV10 31337 u53r (Next: 2000)
  • **********
  • Posts: 1749
  • Rating: +60/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2011, 05:16:28 pm »
They used Just Cause 2 in the video :D Best. Game. Ever.

If this takes off, then there will be a reason for DRAM growth again :D
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/dram-memory-growth-forecast,13167.html

So they're back again. I have to say, the quality was quite impressive, but I'm still unsure if they will be able to do dynamic animation, as everything is on a grid of voxels, this makes stuff like ragdoll physics quite hard. Atomontage also looks promising, they have solved this problem by using voxels for the stationary environment, and polygons for moving objects. They even have voxel based physics implemented. I wonder how hard the lighting will be with voxels. I'm kind of worried, however, that video games that use this technology will have lots of repetitive content, due to the massive storage space requirements.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 05:29:06 pm by t0xic_kitt3n »

Offline Scipi

  • Omni Kitten Meow~ =^ω^=
  • LV10 31337 u53r (Next: 2000)
  • **********
  • Posts: 1547
  • Rating: +192/-3
  • Meow :3
    • View Profile
    • ScipiSoftware
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2011, 05:52:08 pm »
I liked the , "and these are grains of dirt" part. :P

They never mentioned how they dealt with the memory usage and processing power required to render the level at all, much less in real time.

Imma Cat! =^_^= :3 (It's an emoticon now!)
Spoiler For Things I find interesting:
Spoiler For AI Programming:
Spoiler For Shameless advertising:

Spoiler For OldSig:





Spoiler For IMPORTANT NEWS!:
Late last night, Quebec was invaded by a group calling themselves, "Omnimaga". Not much is known about these mysterious people except that they all carried calculators of some kind and they all seemed to converge on one house in particular. Experts estimate that the combined power of their fabled calculators is greater than all the worlds super computers put together. The group seems to be holding out in the home of a certain DJ_O, who the Omnimagians claim to be their founder. Such power has put the world at a standstill with everyone waiting to see what the Omnimagians will do...

Wait... This just in, the Omnimagians have sent the UN a list of demands that must be met or else the world will be "submitted to the wrath of Netham45's Lobster Army". Such demands include >9001 crates of peanuts, sacrificial blue lobsters, and a wide assortment of cherry flavored items. With such computing power stored in the hands of such people, we can only hope these demands are met.

In the wake of these events, we can only ask, Why? Why do these people make these demands, what caused them to gather, and what are their future plans...

Offline z80man

  • Casio Traitor
  • LV8 Addict (Next: 1000)
  • ********
  • Posts: 977
  • Rating: +85/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2011, 06:50:45 pm »
It is doable but not right now with our current technology. Although cpu speeds are increasing exponentially each year, the speed of memory is progressing at a much slower rate. Knowing the memory demands of software like this the bottleneck would be in cache misses and even more likely missing the ram itself and having to load data from the hard disk which is eons slower than the cpu. I'm betting that this technology will be in use with the film industry within the next 10 years and that have the game industry in an additional 5 to 10 years. And when it comes to difficulties such as animation, techniques are available but they don't have the perfect detail seen in the rendering engine.

List of stuff I need to do before September:
1. Finish the Emulator of the Casio Prizm (in active development)
2. Finish the the SH3 asm IDE/assembler/linker program (in active development)
3. Create a partial Java virtual machine  for the Prizm (not started)
4. Create Axe for the Prizm with an Axe legacy mode (in planning phase)
5. Develop a large set of C and asm libraries for the Prizm (some progress)
6. Create an emulator of the 83+ for the Prizm (not started)
7. Create a well polished game that showcases the ability of the Casio Prizm (not started)

Offline ben_g

  • Hey cool I can set a custom title now :)
  • LV9 Veteran (Next: 1337)
  • *********
  • Posts: 1002
  • Rating: +125/-4
  • Asm noob
    • View Profile
    • Our programmer's team: GameCommandoSquad
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2011, 07:08:40 pm »
Memory is indeed a problem: for example: after 2:20 in the video: "Elephant contains 530 906 polygons": A model usually contains almost the same amount of vertices than ploygons, and each vertix contains an int (to store the id of the vertex) and 3 floats(to save it's position). Ints and floats are each 4 bytes, so to store each point, you need 4*4=16 bytes.
With polygons, they almost always mean triangles, and for each triangle, you need to store it's id and the points it's made of. So each triangle is stored as 16 bytes. this means that the elephant is approximately (530 906 * 4)*2 = 4 247 248 bytes = 4147kb = 4mb. So only one model of the scene is already 4 megabytes, and this is witout the texture. for that, you'll need another megabyte, so witouth the texture image itself, it's a bit over 5 mb large. And this isn't the only model in the scene.
My projects
 - The Lost Survivors (Unreal Engine) ACTIVE [GameCommandoSquad main project]
 - Oxo, with single-calc multiplayer and AI (axe) RELEASED (screenshot) (topic)
 - An android version of oxo (java)  ACTIVE
 - A 3D collision detection library (axe) RELEASED! (topic)(screenshot)(more recent screenshot)(screenshot of it being used in a tilemapper)
Spoiler For inactive:
- A first person shooter with a polygon-based 3d engine. (z80, will probably be recoded in axe using GLib) ON HOLD (screenshot)
 - A java MORPG. (pc) DEEP COMA(read more)(screenshot)
 - a minecraft game in axe DEAD (source code available)
 - a 3D racing game (axe) ON HOLD (outdated screenshot of asm version)

This signature was last updated on 20/04/2015 and may be outdated

Offline fb39ca4

  • LV10 31337 u53r (Next: 2000)
  • **********
  • Posts: 1749
  • Rating: +60/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2011, 08:08:52 pm »
The model itself doesn't use polygons, it uses voxels. Let's assume that the elephant statue is contained in a 750mm (75cm) cube. The guy said there were 64 voxels per cubic millimeter, so that makes 75 * 75 * 75 * 64, or 27,000,000 voxels. If the voxel has a 32 bit color value associated with it, that is 102MB right there. On a disk, that number can be greatly reduced by not storing information about the voxels inside the model, which nobody sees, but in memory it pretty much has to be in a 3D array so the renderer can quickly access the voxel at the arbitrary point x,y,z. (Unless the breakthrough he is talking about is in searching for voxels in another way) Actually, now that I think about it, an octree could be used so empty/unseen space need not be stored. But there is still massive amounts of data to be stored for a whole level, so I have a feeling a lot of stuff will be repetitive.

Also, did anyone notice how that guy left out games that use tesselation? So far, it has been a great solution to the polygon budget issue.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 08:10:56 pm by t0xic_kitt3n »

Offline ZippyDee

  • LV8 Addict (Next: 1000)
  • ********
  • Posts: 729
  • Rating: +83/-8
  • Why not zoidberg?
    • View Profile
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2011, 08:11:17 pm »
The model itself doesn't use polygons, it uses voxels. Let's assume that the elephant statue is contained in a 750mm (75cm) cube. The guy said there were 64 voxels per cubic millimeter, so that makes 75 * 75 * 75 * 64, or 27,000,000 voxels. If the voxel has a 32 bit color value associated with it, that is 102MB right there. On a disk, that number can be greatly reduced by not storing information about the voxels inside the model, which nobody sees, but in memory it pretty much has to be in a 3D array so the renderer can quickly access the voxel at the arbitrary point x,y,z. (Unless the breakthrough he is talking about is in searching for voxels in another way) Actually, now that I think about it, an octree could be used so empty/unseen space need not be stored.

Also, did anyone notice how that guy left out games that use tesselation? So far, it has been a great solution to the polygon budget issue.

The whole idea is that it uses octrees...
There's something about Tuesday...


Pushpins 'n' stuff...


Offline fb39ca4

  • LV10 31337 u53r (Next: 2000)
  • **********
  • Posts: 1749
  • Rating: +60/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2011, 10:35:32 pm »
I figured that out, and now I find it quite amusing how he compared his engine to internet search engines in the first video.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55943
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Unlimited Detail!
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2011, 11:16:32 pm »
This is interesting, but I really feel memory might be a serious problem for some games, so games using this might end up having repetitive levels.