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Author Topic: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?  (Read 23366 times)

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Offline TIfanx1999

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2011, 09:16:00 pm »
Quote from: Spyro543 on June 05, 2011, 12:25:41 pm
"Hack" as in "void the warranty"? I have nothing against these two programming languages, and many of the games so far wouldn't be possible without Ndless, but I'm just fine with Lua.
If you want to continue to enjoy the games that have been produced to run under ndless thus far then ndless is still necessary. As new Oses are released and downgrade protection is added, new versions of ndless are required to operate on the new Oses. I'd imagine the Non-CX Nspires are on their way out, and soon the only calculators capable of even running Ndless will be the old models that haven't upgraded to the new OSes.

Also agreeing that while the addition of LUA is nice, it's no replacement for ASM/C.
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Offline z80man

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2011, 10:20:03 pm »
Quote from: Qwerty.55 on June 05, 2011, 08:19:56 pm
Quote from: Ashbad on June 05, 2011, 07:07:51 pm
...C has full access over lower level parts of the OS and the hardware itself...

Technical Correction: C has partial access to the lower level parts of the OS and the hardware itself. Some things just can't be done without dipping into inline ASM. C does a heck of the lot, though, to be fair.
Just to go farther there are some things you can't do in asm either. Take windows for example, you can't get full control of the cpu due to the way the virtual memory is organized. In fact only Windows itself is allowed to view the physical memory. For some things you have to rely on the OS to do some things, which can be both good and bad. In some cases syscalls are very well written plus it prevents programs from corrupting the system. But as we know with TI many syscalls are very poorly written, but we are forced to use them.
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List of stuff I need to do before September:
1. Finish the Emulator of the Casio Prizm (in active development)
2. Finish the the SH3 asm IDE/assembler/linker program (in active development)
3. Create a partial Java virtual machine  for the Prizm (not started)
4. Create Axe for the Prizm with an Axe legacy mode (in planning phase)
5. Develop a large set of C and asm libraries for the Prizm (some progress)
6. Create an emulator of the 83+ for the Prizm (not started)
7. Create a well polished game that showcases the ability of the Casio Prizm (not started)

Offline calc84maniac

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2011, 10:22:21 pm »
Quote from: z80man on June 05, 2011, 10:20:03 pm
Quote from: Qwerty.55 on June 05, 2011, 08:19:56 pm
Quote from: Ashbad on June 05, 2011, 07:07:51 pm
...C has full access over lower level parts of the OS and the hardware itself...

Technical Correction: C has partial access to the lower level parts of the OS and the hardware itself. Some things just can't be done without dipping into inline ASM. C does a heck of the lot, though, to be fair.
Just to go farther there are some things you can't do in asm either. Take windows for example, you can't get full control of the cpu due to the way the virtual memory is organized. In fact only Windows itself is allowed to view the physical memory. For some things you have to rely on the OS to do some things, which can be both good and bad. In some cases syscalls are very well written plus it prevents programs from corrupting the system. But as we know with TI many syscalls are very poorly written, but we are forced to use them.
Technically we do have full access, because the TI-Nspire OS doesn't implement user/system modes so it's always in system mode. (They had no reason for a user mode since they don't allow 3rd party ASM)
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Offline z80man

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2011, 10:26:12 pm »
Wasn't there that issue though on the 83+ when it came to flash. Can't certain functions only be done from page 0 in flash which the OS controls. I think one of them was unlocking the flash.
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List of stuff I need to do before September:
1. Finish the Emulator of the Casio Prizm (in active development)
2. Finish the the SH3 asm IDE/assembler/linker program (in active development)
3. Create a partial Java virtual machine  for the Prizm (not started)
4. Create Axe for the Prizm with an Axe legacy mode (in planning phase)
5. Develop a large set of C and asm libraries for the Prizm (some progress)
6. Create an emulator of the 83+ for the Prizm (not started)
7. Create a well polished game that showcases the ability of the Casio Prizm (not started)

Offline calc84maniac

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2011, 10:28:43 pm »
Quote from: z80man on June 05, 2011, 10:26:12 pm
Wasn't there that issue though on the 83+ when it came to flash. Can't certain functions only be done from page 0 in flash which the OS controls. I think one of them was unlocking the flash.
Well, TI had to do that sort of thing because they allowed assembly programming. (Also to prevent accidental flash writes in case of OS glitches, I suppose). In the case of the Nspire, they didn't have to limit access to anything because their OS is the only C/ASM that ever runs.
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Offline willrandship

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2011, 10:38:33 pm »
Which would be a real reason to hate unofficial 3rd party ones. It's much less secure.
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Offline calc84maniac

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2011, 10:45:04 pm »
Quote from: willrandship on June 05, 2011, 10:38:33 pm
Which would be a real reason to hate unofficial 3rd party ones. It's much less secure.
But we can do much more awesome stuff with direct access to the hardware anyway. I know that I, for one, am not going to write malicious programs and I think nobody else in this community would, either. Thus Ndless is fairly safe IMO.
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Offline willrandship

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2011, 11:00:20 pm »
But, you could accidentally brick your own hardware through a small corruption in your code. That corruption could be as bad as intentionally malicious code, or even worse.

And I forgot to put "for TI" after reason. :P
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Offline calc84maniac

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2011, 11:05:11 pm »
Quote from: willrandship on June 05, 2011, 11:00:20 pm
But, you could accidentally brick your own hardware through a small corruption in your code. That corruption could be as bad as intentionally malicious code, or even worse.

And I forgot to put "for TI" after reason. :P
Actually, the most you can do is reboot the calculator, corrupt the boot2 (which can be resent via RS232 cable), or corrupt the OS (which can be resent via RS232 or USB). The last two will only happen if you're messing with the Flash memory.
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Offline willrandship

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2011, 11:08:44 pm »
Didn't someone find a way to alter boot1 thru ndless on here? Let me look up the thread...

Edit: here. look for NOR rom. Something about SD cards too....;D
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 11:11:20 pm by willrandship »
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Offline calc84maniac

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2011, 11:10:12 pm »
Quote from: willrandship on June 05, 2011, 11:08:44 pm
Didn't someone find a way to alter boot1 thru ndless on here? Let me look up the thread...
There's a theory that it can be altered due to an option found in the diagnostics software. I don't believe it has been shown to be possible though.
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Offline ExtendeD

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2011, 02:41:55 am »
I see Lua and C/asm as complementary: hopefully Ndless 3.0 will make possible to embed Lua scripts in Ndless programs, and extended the Lua API with native functions.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 02:42:28 am by ExtendeD »
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Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2011, 02:59:55 am »
That would be pretty cool, but probably a significant amount of work :)

Besides embedding Lua scripts in Ndless programs, I think that for correct interaction between native code and the Phoenix math stack (especially, R/W access to variables embedded in the document), we'll have to figure out how to embed a Ndless document in a "normal" TNS document.
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Offline ExtendeD

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2011, 04:04:05 am »
<< That would be pretty cool, but probably a significant amount of work >>

Probably not so difficult: Lua is designed to be embeddable and extendable. Finding out the Lua entry points in the OS is quite easy.
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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Will Lua erase the need for Ndless?
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2011, 04:05:19 am »
It would be nice if you figured that out ;D
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