Author Topic: New RSA Algorithm discussion  (Read 65459 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jnesselr

  • King Graphmastur
  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2270
  • Rating: +81/-20
  • TAO == epic
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2010, 10:59:53 pm »
You are correct.  I fixed it in both posts.  Also, the sieve would require a huge amount of space for it, and I barely understand the concepts in a sieve like this.  The idea of this thread was to create better alternatives for the current algorithms, so what are your ideas to make it faster?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 11:00:13 pm by graphmastur »

Offline quasi_Phthalo

  • LV3 Member (Next: 100)
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • Rating: +1/-1
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2010, 11:20:27 pm »
Quote
Computing phi(n) is polynomial-time equivalent to factoring n. It is generally accepted that the two problems are equally hard.
"equally hard" in the sense of "the only way we know HOW to find phi(n) is to factor n, hence, they take the same amount of time". But i'm suggesting to find a different way to find phi(n)

so, this key is 1024 bits, right? Is the first bit a 0 or a 1? In other words, is the 1024 just a general size, slash, does starting with a 0 made it a 1023 bit number....?

Offline Tribal

  • The Fallen
  • LV5 Advanced (Next: 300)
  • *
  • Posts: 218
  • Rating: +15/-1
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2010, 11:47:37 pm »
The amount of bits can be seen by 2^n where 'n' is the amount of bits a number is.
8-bit: 2^8=256
16-bit: 2^16=65536
etc...

EDIT: The result refers to the largest possible number that the bit can hold.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 11:50:35 pm by Tribal »

Offline quasi_Phthalo

  • LV3 Member (Next: 100)
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • Rating: +1/-1
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2010, 11:52:49 pm »
right, but, the number 120, for example, would fall under the class of 1-byte (8-bit) integers because that's the size of register you would most likely put it in, even though it technically only takes up 7 bits.
i was wondering specifically, is the key exactly 1024 bits long, with the first bit a 1?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 12:01:51 am by quasi_Phthalo »

Offline bwang

  • LV7 Elite (Next: 700)
  • *******
  • Posts: 634
  • Rating: +30/-11
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2010, 12:56:31 am »
Quote
Computing phi(n) is polynomial-time equivalent to factoring n. It is generally accepted that the two problems are equally hard.
"equally hard" in the sense of "the only way we know HOW to find phi(n) is to factor n, hence, they take the same amount of time". But i'm suggesting to find a different way to find phi(n)
"Equally hard" as in find phi(n) would allow us to factor n too.
Quote
The idea of this thread was to create better alternatives for the current algorithms, so what are your ideas to make it faster?
A new algorithm that is asymptotically faster than the NFS would be a monumental achievement. The top researchers in the field have been working on it for a couple decades now, and so far no they've had no luck.
If you want to start building  a new algorithm, its best to look at the current ones first. In case anyone is interested, here is a summary of the Quadratic Sieve, the (slower) predecessor to the NFS. It uses the same ideas, but is much, much simpler (no prime ideals, rings of algebraic integers, etc., just good old integers!).

The Quadratic Sieve
Let n be the number we are attempting to factor. The gist of the QS (and the NFS) is to find x^2 = y^2 (mod n) with x and y integers. Then we may compute gcd(x - y, n) and gcd(x + y, n), which each has a high probability of being a nontrivial factor of n.
But how do we find such x and y? That is what the algorithm does.
We define a factor base F = {p_1, p_2, ... p_k} to be the set of all primes less than or equal to some predetermined bound B. Let f(x) = x^2 - n. Let I be the set of integers contained in the interval [sqrt(n), sqrt(n) + M] for some predetermined bound M. Finally, we say that an integer m in I is smooth over F if all prime factors of m are in F.
Step 1: Sieving
The sieving step tries to find k integers a_1, a_2, a_3, ... a_k in I such that f(a_i) is smooth over F for all i = 1, 2, ... k. It works as follows:
*Initialize an array T to the values of f(a), where a is in the interval I.
*For each prime p in F:
    *Find solutions x0, x1 to the congruence x^2 = n (mod p) using the Shanks-Tonelli algorithm.
    *Divide the elements of T corresponding to x0 + t * p, x1 + t * p (t is an integer) by the largest value of p that divide them. Note that since
      x0, x1 satisfy x^2 = n (mod p), f(x0 + t * p) and f(x1 + t * p) are divisible by p. Indeed, the are the only elements of T divisible by p.
*Store the values of f corresponding to those elements of T that are now 1 into an array R. The elements of R are precisely those values of f(a) that
  are smooth over F.
Step 2: Linear algebra
*We now have {a_1, a_2, ... a_k} with f(a_i) smooth over F. We want to find a subset of the f(a_i) such that their product is a square.
*To so, write f(a_i) = p_1^e_i1 * p_2^e_i2 * ... * p_k^e_ik. Associate with a_i the binary vector A_i = (e_i1 % 2, e_i2 % 2, ... e_ik % 2). If we can 
  find a binary vector (c_1, c_2, ... c_k) such that sum (c_i * A_i) = (0, 0, 0, ...0) mod 2, we'd have our subset. This is because the product of the
  a_i corresponding to those c_i that are 1 would have the property that the exponent of each p_i is even.
*Now let the matrix A = [A_1, A_2, ...A_k] (we are placing the column representations of the A_i side by side to form A). A moment's thought shows
  that finding the c_i corresponds to solving the system A * C = 0. This is a well known problem from linear algebra, and can be solved with Gaussian 
  elimination or the Lanczos algorithm.
*When all is said and done, we have our subset of the a_i. Call these {b_1, b_2, ... b_m}.
Step 3: Finding x and y
*We simply let x = b_1 * b_2 * ... * b_m and y = sqrt(f(b_1) * f(b_2) * ... * f(b_m)). By the definition of the b_i and f, y is an integer, and x^2 =
  y^2 (mod n)
*We have x and y, so we can factor n!

« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 02:11:17 am by bwang »

Offline mapar007

  • LV7 Elite (Next: 700)
  • *******
  • Posts: 550
  • Rating: +28/-5
  • The Great Mata Mata
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2010, 04:05:54 am »
Quote
Computing phi(n) is polynomial-time equivalent to factoring n. It is generally accepted that the two problems are equally hard.
"equally hard" in the sense of "the only way we know HOW to find phi(n) is to factor n, hence, they take the same amount of time". But i'm suggesting to find a different way to find phi(n)

That would require a major breakthrough in number theory, not in algorithm study ;)

Offline jnesselr

  • King Graphmastur
  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2270
  • Rating: +81/-20
  • TAO == epic
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2010, 08:43:37 am »
You are correct Mapar007, AFAIK.

@bwang.  Thank you for explaining that, I think the quadratic sieve will help.  quick question,though.  Do you mind explaining what the difficult part or what part takes the most time is? eg. why is it ineffective?

Offline bwang

  • LV7 Elite (Next: 700)
  • *******
  • Posts: 634
  • Rating: +30/-11
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2010, 04:13:07 pm »
The most time-consuming step of the QS is the sieving step. The NFS improves upon it by using a different, more complicated sieving method.
The matrix step for the QS and the NFS use the same algorithm, which, unfortunately, cannot be easily distributed over a network.

Offline jnesselr

  • King Graphmastur
  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2270
  • Rating: +81/-20
  • TAO == epic
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2010, 10:39:22 pm »
Thank you Bwang, for that information.

I thought about a recursive algorithm that finds the factors, but have no idea how it would be done.  It would stop once it found p or q, but where to start.  Obviously, we are talking about integers, here. (eg, not decimals or fractions)  Any ideas?

Offline Lionel Debroux

  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2135
  • Rating: +290/-45
    • View Profile
    • TI-Chess Team
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2010, 03:01:40 am »
Quote
The matrix step for the QS and the NFS use the same algorithm, which, unfortunately, cannot be easily distributed over a network.
Indeed, at least for problems of the size we're talking about (GNFS difficulty 310 >> state of the art).
For smaller problems, jasonp recently added MPI support to msieve, and smaller problems sail on a cluster of Infiniband-connected nodes (i.e. not everyone's average PC): http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=13550
Member of the TI-Chess Team.
Co-maintainer of GCC4TI (GCC4TI online documentation), TILP and TIEmu.
Co-admin of TI-Planet.

Offline jnesselr

  • King Graphmastur
  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2270
  • Rating: +81/-20
  • TAO == epic
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2010, 11:17:33 am »
So can the matrix be done over a network type thing?  Can you explain Tonelli-Shanks algorithm or give a link to a better article than wikipedia?

Basically, though, if we could solve the matrix over a network of computers, would it be more efficient for these numbers? eg. not take forever?

Offline Lionel Debroux

  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2135
  • Rating: +290/-45
    • View Profile
    • TI-Chess Team
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 11:47:11 am »
Yes, it can be done over a network, that's what they did for RSA-768. It's hard and it scales sub-linearly.

I know nothing about how the integer factoring algorithms work :D
(yes, I'm serious, I'm managing a moderate-size integer factoring grid and I don't know how the algorithms work. I don't really need to)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 11:52:20 am by Lionel Debroux »
Member of the TI-Chess Team.
Co-maintainer of GCC4TI (GCC4TI online documentation), TILP and TIEmu.
Co-admin of TI-Planet.

Offline jnesselr

  • King Graphmastur
  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2270
  • Rating: +81/-20
  • TAO == epic
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 01:36:47 pm »
You have no idea how they work, and yet you host a grid.  Wow.  Wait, grid?  what Grid?

Anyway, yeah, so what did you think of the recursive idea? Is it possible?

Offline Lionel Debroux

  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2135
  • Rating: +290/-45
    • View Profile
    • TI-Chess Team
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2010, 01:45:58 pm »
The RSALS grid, which started for speeding up the factorization of the 512-bit RSA keys of TI-Z80 and TI-68k calculators, and has, after those factorizations, switched to integers of mathematical interest :)
I'm not the owner of the server, but I'm the one feeding the grid with numbers, nowadays using the Web interface done by the owner. See http://boinc.unsads.com/rsals/crunching.php for more information.

And I frankly have zero idea about your idea, sorry :(
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 01:46:27 pm by Lionel Debroux »
Member of the TI-Chess Team.
Co-maintainer of GCC4TI (GCC4TI online documentation), TILP and TIEmu.
Co-admin of TI-Planet.

Offline matthias1992

  • LV6 Super Member (Next: 500)
  • ******
  • Posts: 408
  • Rating: +33/-5
    • View Profile
Re: New RSA Algorithm discussion
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2010, 04:54:18 pm »
Either I am a genius or I entirely misunderstand the concept of factoring but I managed to yesterday crack a 32 bit key on my calculator under a second. I think I entirely misunderstand the whole RSA encryption technology :(

well if I am back home (where I have boinc) I'll usrely support the project.
MASM xxxxxxxxxx aborted | SADce ====:::::: 40% -Halted until further notice| XAOS =====::::: 50% -Units done| SKYBOX2D engine ========== 100% -Pre-alpha done. Need to  document it and extend |

~Those who dream by day are cognizant of much more than those who dream by night only. -Sir Edgar Allen Poe-