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Author Topic: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)  (Read 18326 times)

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Offline tangrs

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2012, 07:21:33 am »
Just a quick update on this

The ELF loader is at a point where most users can use it. I've removed the debugging console and polished it up a bit. Most users can compile it and use it for loading their ELF files now (instructions on how to build your programs to work on this is on the readme).

It's implemented as a hook onto the normal program loader so you can open ELF binaries just as easily as you do opening normal Ndless binaries.

I'd be interested to hear your feedback and any bug reports!

Thanks!
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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2012, 09:26:52 am »
Hmm interesting stuff, although I have no clue what is ELF at all, so I'M gonna have to do some research on the subject. I'm glad to see new Ndless-related stuff in the works again. :)
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Offline ExtendeD

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2012, 09:43:24 am »
Nice tangrs :)

For my understanding, before I find more time to look into this :
- What are the remaining issues?
- How big the loader is, and how much bigger does ELF programs are compared to the current programs?
- How far would the loader be from being able to link programs with dynamic libraries (and is this something really want looking back on the TI-68k experience)?
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Offline Juju

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2012, 12:01:18 pm »
ELF is the executable file format used on Linux and most UNIX-based OSes, right?
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Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2012, 01:11:50 pm »
Right, juju :)

Quote
dynamic libraries (and is this something really want looking back on the TI-68k experience)?
Indeed, +1. Even a simple versioning scheme can cure a number of DLL-related woes.
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Offline tangrs

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2012, 04:40:28 pm »
Quote from: ExtendeD on January 19, 2012, 09:43:24 am
Nice tangrs :)

For my understanding, before I find more time to look into this :
- What are the remaining issues?
- How big the loader is, and how much bigger does ELF programs are compared to the current programs?
- How far would the loader be from being able to link programs with dynamic libraries (and is this something really want looking back on the TI-68k experience)?

Most of the issues remaining are pretty much error checking and bug hunting and fixing.

The loader is roughly 53KB.

Depending on your linker options and program, ELF files are generally many times larger than normal binaries but it's hard to know exactly how much. To give an idea, you normally won't find a ELF file less than 30ish KB. I've seen a 480B program with an equivalent ~50KB ELF file. Weird enough, I've also seen a 53KB program with a 60KB equivalent ELF file.

I've had a thought and I think it's probably better it's made into an optional extra in Ndless since the loader contains a lot of bulk and most users won't be needing ELF files. Thoughts?

I haven't really looked into loading dynamic libraries so I'm unsure of it's complexities right now. It does seem a little messy though (i.e. as mentioned, we could easily run into an equivalent of DLL-hell). I'll take a look into it and see if I can work something out.
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Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2012, 12:54:38 am »
In my previous post, I forgot to post something along the lines of "nice job". Please accept my apologies ;)

Quote
I've seen a 480B program with an equivalent ~50KB ELF file.
Uh, does this one contain an awful amount of debugging information, or is it just the toolchain going insane ?

The complexity of ELF is the reason why several of us had thought of the much simpler BFLT :)

DLL hell can be alleviated by using versioning (in a correct fashion).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 02:16:49 am by Lionel Debroux »
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Offline Jim Bauwens

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2012, 02:51:03 am »
Nice to see much progress on it.
I only understand half of what is said, but I can see its something good :D
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Offline tangrs

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2012, 07:34:44 am »
Quote from: Lionel Debroux on January 20, 2012, 12:54:38 am
In my previous post, I forgot to post something along the lines of "nice job". Please accept my apologies ;)

Quote
I've seen a 480B program with an equivalent ~50KB ELF file.
Uh, does this one contain an awful amount of debugging information, or is it just the toolchain going insane ?

The complexity of ELF is the reason why several of us had thought of the much simpler BFLT :)

DLL hell can be alleviated by using versioning (in a correct fashion).

Thanks, it's appreciated :)

I don't know what's causing that massive ELF file. I'll need to investigate what's hogging all the file size. It does seem an awful lot LOL

I'll look into BFLT - maybe I should channel my energies into writing a BFLT loader instead XD

Quote from: jimbauwens on January 20, 2012, 02:51:03 am
Nice to see much progress on it.
I only understand half of what is said, but I can see its something good :D

Thanks, but it's nothing really special or anything most users would even want to use XD

@ExtendeD, loading shared libraries seem to be a little more complex than I originally thought. It's most likely doable but I'm just wondering about the performance implications of it. I'll have a crack at it some time.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 07:38:55 am by tangrs »
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Offline ExtendeD

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2012, 11:52:38 am »
OK, good luck with this.
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Offline alberthrocks

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2012, 10:58:54 am »
Any progress on this? ELF support would be very interesting to see on the Nspire! :D
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Offline tangrs

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2012, 04:52:59 am »
Quote from: alberthrocks on February 11, 2012, 10:58:54 am
Any progress on this? ELF support would be very interesting to see on the Nspire! :D

The basic loader works on the older 2.1 models but I haven't had a look on how to get it to work on Ndless 3.1 (and take advantage of it's built in file association system). I'll get around to it soon.
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Offline ExtendeD

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 05:11:10 am »
Good, I'm waiting for it :)
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Offline Jim Bauwens

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2012, 03:55:45 pm »
Glad to see you will support Ndless 3.1 :)
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Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: ELF Loader for Ndless - (now ready for non-dev use)
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2012, 02:26:47 pm »
Did you manage to cut down on the size of the massive ELF files ? :)
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