Omnimaga
Omnimaga => News => Topic started by: uberspire on October 08, 2010, 01:26:03 pm
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I haven't posted here in a long time, but I thought you guys might be interested:
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4162/fxcg20.png)
Coming out in January 2011, it has a 216x384 65,536 color display and 16 MB of flash for apps. There's a video of it here:
You could see in the old classroom a TI-Nspire. Then while the old classroom is being transformed into a modern one, the TI-Nspire changes to a CASIO Prizm.
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Whoa!
It looks more like a cell phone-Ipod than a calculator, though...
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I bet TI must be very upset... ;D
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Quick! Somebody blast the site!! ;D
http://ourl.ca/7315 (http://ourl.ca/7315)
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That actually looks awesome. I hope TI doesn't fade away, though D:
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This can probably be epic, if done right.
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Time for TI to release something worth programming ... j/k ;D
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Time for TI to release something worth programming ... j/k ;D
They have to figure out how to put a silly N in color first :P
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Wow, very nice!
/me hopes a color Nspire comes out soon
Does Casio block ASM too?
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*Thinks about being able to use a 216x384 screen with FFFFh colors*
I don't think Axe would work very well with it :P
*Suspects the Casio community will shortly exceed the TI community in cool projects*
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Unless it has full asm support, i dont think there will be any cool projects for it :P But seeing as the calc has *apps* it does look promising o.O
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If you can jailbreak an Iphone into accepting Assembly, I'm sure you can do it with a Calculator. But you're right, that would cut down on the number of projects. If Casio is smart, then they'll try to appeal to the
nerds Calculator community with program support.
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I wonder how large Casio keys are. s:
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yayz! now that means TI's got to release something good now to keep up!
but then again, schools probably won't like those which will mean TI doesn't have to do anything... :(
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Whoa!
It looks more like a cell phone-Ipod than a calculator, though...
Does look very cell phone like although I think it looks too big for it to resemble a cell phone by the look of its size. I wonder how programmable it is...
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I think its going to be pretty programmable, because why would someone using it for math want all those other features, they'll say its not worth the money. I'm betting this is programmer oriented.
/me is excited. ;D
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I think its going to be pretty programmable, because why would someone using it for math want all those other features, they'll say its not worth the money. I'm betting this is programmer oriented.
/me is excited. ;D
We thought the same thing about the Nspire...
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but this isn't TI :P
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Moved to news section.
This is freaking epic. Now TI is gonna take a good shot there :P
Btw the FX-9860G is kinda cool too. More limited than z80 for BASIC but it has more RAM and you can do pretty nice flash apps on it.
The CFX 9850G series were cool too, because they also had color display but they looked crappier and the calc was more limited.
Btw nice to see you around Kucalc :D
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This new Casio really looks like a Blackberry cellphone !! ;D
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I wonder how long it will take BrandonW to hack TI's response calculator into having Wi-fi connectivity ::)
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I wonder if Casio was scared of the OTcalc project :P
Maybe they saw OTcalc planning and were a bit worried that we might do them more competition or something and decided to go ahead with something really powerful to also outdo TI :P
I hope this doesn't eat batteries like crazy, though...
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I wonder how long it will take BrandonW to hack TI's response calculator into having Wi-fi connectivity ::)
It would probably take longer for TI to actually release the calculator. :(
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I wonder if Casio was scared of the OTcalc project :P
Maybe they saw OTcalc planning and were a bit worried that we might do them more competition or something and decided to go ahead with something really powerful to also outdo TI :P
I hope this doesn't eat batteries like crazy, though...
In the specs, it says it gets about 140 hours on batteries, I believe.
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What processor does it run on?
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It looks cool- hopefully it supports assembly (or C) right out of the box, and not just Casio-Basic or whatever language Casio calcs use. (I know a bit about HP calcs but nothing about Casio).
I did think it was some new cell phone (or some cell phone hacking project by an Omni member) when I first saw it.
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Wow 140 hours, I wonder if that's at the full processing power, cuz if it's the case, it's really epic o.o.
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Casio's mistake will be to make this MUCH MORE expensive than a Nsprie. If it runs around 160 dollars and has some nice programming, I'm pretty sure the Nspire will be toast
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Casio's mistake will be to make this MUCH MORE expensive than a Nsprie. If it runs around 160 dollars and has some nice programming, I'm pretty sure the Nspire will be toast
wired says the calculator runs for $130 so no problems there (:
edit: "With Casio, academic achievement never looked so good. The new fx-CG10/PRIZM is approved for use on the ACT, PSAT, SAT and AP Exams." (http://www.casioeducation.com/prizm/blue)
if it's approved on all those exams, i doubt the math functions are as helpful as a nSpire CAS or TI 89, though.
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I think the nSpire just got raped
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/me agrees ^^
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Casio Prizm!!!
The TI-Nspire killer is born...
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That might not be a good thing. We probably still feel pretty attached to TI now...
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I think TI is just now remembering why its a good idea to put features into your calculator.
And this actually can have an effect on our beloved TI calculator. If TI stops being the sole producer of calculators, maybe they will start to actually put some quality into them.
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That might not be a good thing. We probably still feel pretty attached to TI now...
But TI doesn't feel attached to us...
In the 90s, Casio graphic calculators used to be just crap...
A limited programming language that could not even use the calc applications fully... exactly like on the TI-Nspire!!! You could do less things with the programming language, than with the OS... And on TI graphic calculators, you could then do more things with the programming language than with the OS...
But, since 2000, Casio graphic calculators have completly changed and become much better.
Casio has even released emulators and SDK for their best calculators (fx-9860G/GII family, ClassPad 3XX). Where is the SDK for the TI-Nspire ? . . .
Things are changing. Casio is TI, and TI is Casio.
It is perfectly possible for the Casio Prizm to be more programmable than the TI-Nspire, and to support assembly apps through a SDK.
TI has just released the TI-Nspire TouchPad, with allmost nothing new... A rechargeable 100hours battery that isn't even included in the box, and a touchpad... What's so impressive about a touchpad? A touchscreen would have been better...
The Casio Prizm use standard betteries, and has a 140 hours autonomy!
TI has had big problems with TI-Nspire TouchPad stocks ...
Also the color has been included in the TI-Nspire 2.x softwares, I'm pretty sure TI just cannot release another calculator in the next months.
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for those of you who don't want to look up all the programming specifications, here's what i've managed to get together from reading the downloadable pdf (http://edu.casio.com/products/cg_series/fxcg10_20/#pagelink03).
... the programming editor has a find function.
also, editing on the computer is made simple. you can convert program files to .txt files on the calculator and send them to the computer to open up in notepad, edit them there, and then when you send the txt file back to the calculator? it's automatically converted to a file the calculator can read.
there are pxl/pt/line/circle commands. there's also a "setcolor" command which i presume sets the color that everything is drawn in.
there are a TON of string commands... if you're going to store data this is probably preferred... there are string rotation commands, shift commands, to upper/lowercase, concatenation, substring (naturally).
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to sum it up, Casio is basically trying to convert us after they heard about our complaints about TI. :P
I really want to see what Ti is going to do about this. ;D
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to sum it up, Casio is basically trying to convert us after they heard about our complaints about TI. :P
I really want to see what Ti is going to do about this. ;D
If the Casio Prizm is really released in january 2011, they cannot do anything...
They've just released the TouchPad and advertised it everywhere, although it is hardware-identic to the ClickPad, with allmost nothing new. Not even a bigger Flash-chip, despite the fact we're having problems installing the latest 9Mb OS (which requires more than twice its size during installation, because it uses a temporary file and decompresses some things too...)
It's perfectly clear they have nothing else in the box...
Releasing a new TI-Nspire-like calculator in the next months would cost a lot of money...
And you should all have understood since 2006, that TI doesn't want to spend money on hardware-calculators any more... (exactly like HP)
So, the TI-Nspire TouchPad are dead!
TI-Nspire TouchPad
2010-2011
R.I.P.
I won't regret them, sincerely. :P
With TI, calculators are going worse and worse...
With Casio, calculators are going better and better!
TI is not the best any more...
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only bad thing is if TI doesn't do much better, we're all going to have to switch, and it such a shame with all those great TI games... :(
and we better hope Casio doesn't go the way of TI if it gains more market share.
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idk guys... WE may know that the casio prizm is a million times better than the nspire. but if you're a student and your requirement when getting a grapher is "it can graph equations and my teacher accepts it", the calculator that's still flourishing is the ti 83 series. our teachers still request students get ti 83/84+'s. i have yet to see an nSpire at my school. the marketshare is still firmly in Ti's hands, and a new calculator will not change that. the only way casio's prizm gets attention is if the teacher's bother to learn how to use it, realize its potential, and then start mentioning them in class. then a student buys one.. his friends see it, and hopefully the product sells itself from that point. it is a great starting point though, that casio has released this (:
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idk guys... WE may know that the casio prizm is a million times better than the nspire. but if you're a student and your requirement when getting a grapher is "it can graph equations and my teacher accepts it", the calculator that's still flourishing is the ti 83 series. our teachers still request students get ti 83/84+'s. i have yet to see an nSpire at my school. the marketshare is still firmly in Ti's hands, and a new calculator will not change that. the only way casio's prizm gets attention is if the teacher's bother to learn how to use it, realize its potential, and then start mentioning them in class. then a student buys one.. his friends see it, and hopefully the product sells itself from that point. it is a great starting point though, that casio has released this (:
I didn't say TI was dead... I just said TI-Nspire were dead.
Just compare things which are sold at similar prices.
You may hesitate between a TI-83+/84+ and a Casio fx-9860G/GII for example...
You may choose the TI-83+/84+ for some good reasons: more widely used, much more programs and applications available, more programmable, more assembly support...
And you may choose the Casio fx-9860G/GII for other good reasons: SD card reader, bigger high contrast screen with a greater resolution, TI-85/86-like menus, a much more recent and faster CPU, more than 32Kb RAM, home screen menu with icons...
But now, let's compare the TI-Nspire and the Casio Prizm... What good things can you say about the TI-Nspire?
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Casio will not become the best graphic calculator seller... But Casio may become the best formal/symbolic graphic calculator seller.
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ok, cool, that makes me feel better, since the 84 series is still my favorite. ;)
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only bad thing is if TI doesn't do much better, we're all going to have to switch, and it such a shame with all those great TI games... :(
and we better hope Casio doesn't go the way of TI if it gains more market share.
I'm almost certain that you could build a TI-83+/84+ emulator in the calculator. From what I know of it, Casio's native programming language is almost identical to TI-BASIC and since the User's guide for the calculator (http://edu.casio.com/products/cg_series/data/fxcg10_20_E.pdf (http://edu.casio.com/products/cg_series/data/fxcg10_20_E.pdf)) has a chapter on programming the calculator, I'm assuming that they're making it community friendly.
EDIT: I wish TI-BASIC had half of these functions. You can actually Read lock the source code on the calculator!
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I doubt the 83+/84+ will die, unless the new calc is as cheap as the 84+.
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It's going to be sold for $129.00 USD, which isn't too far off from the 84+ and about equivalent to the 84+ SE. But TI is discontinuing the whole line, so the Casio Prizm will be competing only with the nSpire and it is a few dollars cheaper than it. That's ignoring the obvious discrepancy in features between the Prizm and the nSpire.
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It's going to be sold for $129.00 USD, which isn't too far off from the 84+ and about equivalent to the 84+ SE. But TI is discontinuing the whole line, so the Casio Prizm will be competing only with the nSpire and it is a few dollars cheaper than it. That's ignoring the obvious discrepancy in features between the Prizm and the nSpire.
No they're not going to discontinue the 84s, thankfully. But if it really is $129, then TI's just about screwed...
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Nah TI is not discontinuing the whole line. If you read in the latest pages of the 84+ topic, you'll see that it is only in Germany and Swiss, as well as a few other european countries. However, if TI decides to change their mind and discontinue it everywhere in a near future, they're pretty much screwed.
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They're not discontinuing the 84+ family? Good. I like them.
Anyway, according to Casio's official press release (http://www.casio.com/news/content/51D7AC67-A2F7-479C-9250-926471B69BF9/):
PRIZM™ will be available in January 2011 with an MSRP of $129.99.
Yep, TI's going to take a hit in the market if they can't keep the teachers. Of course, their ten billion dollar market in Semiconductor manufacturing is large enough in comparison that they probably won't care much.
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Nah TI is not discontinuing the whole line. If you read in the latest pages of the 84+ topic, you'll see that it is only in Germany and Swiss, as well as a few other european countries. However, if TI decides to change their mind and discontinue it everywhere in a near future, they're pretty much screwed.
Or if they try to keep selling the 84 series at the current price.
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I hope it gets sold over here. Else, I guess I'll have to use Ebay.
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Referring to the promotional video for the Prizm, I actually like the way that the older classroom looks compared to the newer classroom; the wooden chairs and blackboard seem to have more character about them. Regardless, though, this looks like it is going to be an amazing device. I want one!
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Speaking of schools, teachers would probably confiscate them...they might look too high-tech (to the teacher).
If the 84PSE is really discontinued (which looks like it isn't), I would save for one of these. It looks awesome.
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I also like how on the ad there's a TI-Nspire on the teacher desk ;D
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ooh very nice, it really looks like a smartphone. i guess this is a big step up from the 3 colour 9850 and 9950 calcs that Casio released quite a few years back. does it have lots of features from the 9860 for eg? or any compatibility.
i guess teachers would think it was a smartphone at first glance...
this is actually a really good way to mock the TI-nspire!!! rotf ;D for ti's actions at limiting such a calc that had potential!
saying that TI-nspire is old fashioned and the new fashion is the Prizm and it actually turns into a prism..
really good ad! kucalc!
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Not sure about features and processor so far.
The only disappointment is that it only has 61 KB of RAM (although at least it got 16 MB of archive)
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61kb? what? does that mean it has less than a 9950? (64kb ram) only 61kb of space for programs?
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Don't expect TI to lower prices anytime soon -- unless this Prizm starts encroaching into TI's market share.
The Prizm is an awesome looking calculator. Finally a calc with a backlit color screen. 61Kb of RAM really? It is going to need 162Kb if video RAM just to display a full screen picture.
Looks like TI is going to have to play catch up. I wonder what their response will be.
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Yeah, the RAM seems really low. Maybe it's just user RAM and there's more for hardware/video, though. I wouldn't be surprised if there were hidden RAM pages. I really wonder what processor is there in that and I SERIOUSLY hope it has good programming capabilities.
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it definitely should. Casio hasn't let down users in its programming language like TI has for the TI-nspire. if it didn't then why would they have a TI-nspire in an old classroom and then the Prizm in the new one? surely they wanted to differentiate between the two.
Still, there might be a chance that it displays pictures, graphs, shapes but no programming, i really hope Casio doesn't go down that path, similiar to the path that TI took
Well, i am worried about the RAM, the current calc the 9860 at least had MBs of RAM
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Wow, that looks wonderful. I can't wait for this to come out. I believe the first program that needs to be written for it is a full 83+/84+(SE) emulator. ;D
Nice find kucalc. :D
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It looks like it will need to be jailbroken...:( or maybe it won't :D I hope not. It looks really cool. I probably won't get one though. I'm not made of money :P
i bet this actually has weaker specs than the nspire.....16 MB of User-accessible RAM (Nspire had 27, well at least in 1.1, not so much in 2.1 :P) probably weaker CPU too. hopefully though, Casio will now how to make a decent, optimized OS for it.
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Just wow. I've always heard people say that color on a calc is overkill, let alone full color, but it's hard to resist! I'd definitely want to keep an eye on what the development capabilities on this thing are. For me personally, that's the #1 criterion for choosing a handheld device.
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it definitely should. Casio hasn't let down users in its programming language like TI has for the TI-nspire. if it didn't then why would they have a TI-nspire in an old classroom and then the Prizm in the new one? surely they wanted to differentiate between the two.
Still, there might be a chance that it displays pictures, graphs, shapes but no programming, i really hope Casio doesn't go down that path, similiar to the path that TI took
Well, i am worried about the RAM, the current calc the 9860 at least had MBs of RAM
Actually nope, the 9860 got 64 KB of user RAM. I have one.
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It looks like it will need to be jailbroken...:( or maybe it won't :D I hope not. It looks really cool. I probably won't get one though. I'm not made of money :P
I personally believe that it will have some sort of BASIC language for it, considering that the lower right hand button has "EXE" on it, if not at least assembler support.
*tloz pictures Project M in color*
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hopefully, they'll give out an sdk for their apps. Although, from what I've seen, TI's 84+ SDK was less capable than axe.
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*tloz pictures Project M in color*
/me pictures gbc4nspire/TI-Boy SE in color ;D
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/me pictures NES emulator in color :D
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/me pictures NES emulator in color :D
Better: this ;D (sorry, had to)
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V
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hmm, I hope there shall be in-built asm support...
>:D think of what we could do!
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/me pictures NES emulator in color :D
Just posted that idea on TI-Bank a few hours ago! :p
You're totally right: while would you go on playing NES games in 4-bits grayscale on an unreadable blurred Nspire screen, when you can play them on the wonderfull 16-bits color Prizm screen! \^.^/
We still need to know the cpu family and frequency... Couldn't find anything about that...
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/me pictures NES emulator in color :D
Just posted that idea on TI-Bank a few hours ago! :p
You're totally right: while would you go on playing NES games in 4-bits grayscale on an unreadable blurred Nspire screen, when you can play them on the wonderfull Prizm screen! \^.^/
We still need to know the cpu family and frequency... Couldn't find anything about that...
The screen appears to be slightly too small to fit the whole NES screen, which is also a problem.
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hmm, I hope there shall be in-built asm support...
>:D think of what we could do!
Like on all recent Casio calculators (fx-9860G/GII), there will be a PC SDK to develop applications (they're called "Add-ins" is the Casio world). Add-ins support has been announced by Casio.
/me pictures NES emulator in color :D
Just posted that idea on TI-Bank a few hours ago! :p
You're totally right: while would you go on playing NES games in 4-bits grayscale on an unreadable blurred Nspire screen, when you can play them on the wonderfull Prizm screen! \^.^/
We still need to know the cpu family and frequency... Couldn't find anything about that...
The screen appears to be slightly too small to fit the whole NES screen, which is also a problem.
That's not the main problem.
The NES screen could still be scaled or scrolled (anyway, there are often menu bars at the top or the bottom...).
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Yeah, I guess you're right about that. It's not alot of space either, I think it's about 32 pixels or something like that.
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On the site I swear I saw 384x216 display. There would only be like 8 missing pixels at the top or bottom of the screen. On such small screen it would most likely be hard to read stuff, tho, assuming the calc size is similar to the FX-9860G
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Personally, I'm both happy and sad that TI let this happen. I serious;y would have bought an Nspire in 2008 if there was ANY assembly support of ANY KIND. Same in 2009 and 2010. But I'm fed up, so this really made my day (I literally was singing to DAvid Lee Roth in some Van Halen songs this mornin when I saw the news)
Oh and by the way, this is my first post here I believe. Nice site!
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yep, TI better get some azzum onto their nspires and pronto! The nspire will die out other wise...
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Hi ASHBAD_ALVIN, welcome to Omni. :)
Yeah, it's kinda sad to see that TI will lose some of it's monopoly, but it may lead to lower prices on calcs... ;D
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hmm, welcome...
(uh-oh, I have seen that name before D:)
anywho, yeah, I cant tell what some schools might think of this calc, it might be _to_ computer like for it to be acceptable...
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Hi and welcome on the site ASHBAD_ALVIN.
Personally, the only reason why I got a TI-Nspire in the first place is because of the TI-84+ mode. I had a 83+, a defective 83+SE and wanted another calc that ran my games in 15 MHz mode and did not mind compatibilities issues very much. The TI-84+SE was more expensive than the TI-Nspire back then, where I live, so I felt it was a waste of money to get a 84+SE when I could get two calcs in one instead and didn't mind having 480 KB of archive instead of 1.5 MB. Finally, I rejoiced even more when I saw that the so-called 84+ mode was actually a 84+SE mode, even thought TI advertises it as regular 84+ on the package. Until Ndless 1.0 came out, I never used my TI-Nspire in Nspire mode very much.
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Even the 83+ is more powerful than some previous computers ;)
What would they be afraid of? ??? It's not like it has wireless capabilities...
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The 84 didn't either. But now it has bluetooth compatibility, I think.
Then look at this thing, and you'd think whoever the BrandonW is of casio calcs would take almost no time at all to make a full-fledged web browser or something.
Or, some kids might use it as an mp3 player.
Or...
*Darl181 goes off on long rant
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Bluetooth? Sound? I'm not sure the PRIZM has either of these...
* calcdude is confused and wonders whether he is misunderstanding.
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I'm comparing what the 84 has now to the potential the Casio seems to have.
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The Prizm is an awesome looking calculator. Finally a calc with a backlit color screen. 61Kb of RAM really? It is going to need 162Kb if video RAM just to display a full screen picture.
The 61KB of RAM is used for storing BASIC programs. You have 10MB of usable flash memory to store flash apps (C and Assembly) and whatever you want (text, pictures, etc.) On the fx-9860, you had 64KB RAM for storing BASIC progs, but if you wanted to write an app you had access to, I believe, 512KB of hardware RAM and you would just use malloc() to allocate memory for the video RAM or use the video RAM provided by the Casio OS.
I speculate in the future, CASIO might release a SD card version and a clam-shell version, just like they did for the fx-9860G.
Casio is most likely going to release a SDK where you can program in C or assembly. They've done so for all the previous calculators that officially supported add-ins (ClassPad and fx-9860G) and Casio has already released a couple of add-ins on their download site (IIRC, a units converter and a geometry app) so this calculator is surely capable of C and assembly programming. Casio even has an official SDK forum on their site, so they're aware that there are nerds out there who want to program and make apps.
A final note, the North American Prizm (fx-CG10) seems to be a bit crippled than the other Prizm (fx-CG20). From what it sounds like, images and movies (in CASIO's g3p format) created on a fx-CG20 cannot be opened on a fx-CG10, unless it was provided by Casio (On Casio's site you can download images/movies from their gallery: http://edu.casio.com/products/cg_series/materials.html) The fx-CG20 can open images and movies from both the fx-CG20 and fx-CG10. This was probably done so it would conform to testing standards in the US.
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Clam-shell version? ???
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Clam-shell version? ???
The Casio fx-9860G Slim:
(http://www.calculatorsbest.com/images/pictures/casio-fx9860g-slim-graphing-calculator.jpg)
It fits in your pocket.
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Oh, I get it, it opens like a clam.
One would think it's hard to fit all that high-tech stuff into such a small space, but then you look at the size of a cell phone and wonder how short of a time it's going to be until a calculator does the same thing.
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Wow, that looks nothing like what my mind tells me should be a graphing calculator...
Remember that early Casio version? With the book-like layout?
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I just noticed something: SIX SOFT KEYS! Goodness me, S.A.D. would have been awesome for this. That lack of a 6th soft-key on the Ti-83+ is really handicapping my soft-key menus.
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What is the menu layout for the soft keys btw?
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What is the menu layout for the soft keys btw?
A soft-key menu can have up to six items, but the sixth item will always, always be an arrow to move to another menu. Just like 3x3 menus, you can use hotkeys and arrow keys. The first 5 item hotkeys are the soft keys, and the 6th item (which I would have liked to have a 6th soft key for) will have up/down arrows for the hotkey, since they are not needed for soft-key menus
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I just noticed something: SIX SOFT KEYS! Goodness me, S.A.D. would have been awesome for this. That lack of a 6th soft-key on the Ti-83+ is really handicapping my soft-key menus.
I didn't notice that. So it's kind of like the HP calcs, which also have six soft keys.
One thing that would have been cool is if they had arranged the alpha keys like the HPs do, so that you can still enter numbers without switching out of alpha-lock.
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I attempted to send a message to them about asm, the form they had for asking questions just gave me an error `-`
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What is the menu layout for the soft keys btw?
A soft-key menu can have up to six items, but the sixth item will always, always be an arrow to move to another menu. Just like 3x3 menus, you can use hotkeys and arrow keys. The first 5 item hotkeys are the soft keys, and the 6th item (which I would have liked to have a 6th soft key for) will have up/down arrows for the hotkey, since they are not needed for soft-key menus
Oh I meant in S.A.D :P
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I just noticed something: SIX SOFT KEYS! Goodness me, S.A.D. would have been awesome for this. That lack of a 6th soft-key on the Ti-83+ is really handicapping my soft-key menus.
You need exactly 6 keys?
Maybe we could start porting stuff to the Casio calc!
/me thinks for a second, then shoots himself for thinking of betraying TI
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Weird; in middle school, several years ago, I expected that eventually we'd have full-color calculators by high school, and, not out of high school, we have them!
Depending on whether the thing will have 3rd-party ASM/C dev abilities, I might highly consider getting one, no regrets. Of course, if I do, I'll be getting the non-American version. (This is due to the picture issue mentioned above.)
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What is the menu layout for the soft keys btw?
A soft-key menu can have up to six items, but the sixth item will always, always be an arrow to move to another menu. Just like 3x3 menus, you can use hotkeys and arrow keys. The first 5 item hotkeys are the soft keys, and the 6th item (which I would have liked to have a 6th soft key for) will have up/down arrows for the hotkey, since they are not needed for soft-key menus
Oh I meant in S.A.D :P
Oh, sorry, that's what I'm talking about. You should check out the latest screenshot again :)
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any pricing figures yet?
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Yep, cheaper than the Nspire at $129.99 USD ;D
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Even if the Casio does only basic programming, I'm sure it will be much better than Ti-Nspire basic
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Even if the Casio does only basic programming, I'm sure it will be much better than Ti-Nspire basic
That is very sad. TI better get their hands out of their pants and get busy.
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r u serious? 129.99 USD!!!! that makes the Ti-nspire such a ripoff!!! That's like even cheaper than as cheap as the 9860 and the TI-89 titanium used to be! Wow! Casio's pretty generous...
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r u serious? 129.99 USD!!!! that makes the Ti-nspire such a ripoff!!! That's like as cheap as the 9860 and the TI-89 titanium used to be! Wow! Casio's pretty generous...
Generous? Yes. Insane? No. Color PDAs can run that cheap given the same specifications. Agreed, the Nspire is just a ripoff to make money for TI.
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Given that this would be the most powerful graphing calculator around, it's inevitable that the price will not necessarly be as cheap as some PDAs and cellphones, as it is not meant to compete against those directly, but rather against other calculators.
As for the TI-Nspire, it is indeed a ripoff and the TI-84+ is 10x worse, given its performances. (although the later offers more freedom)
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That just makes TI even more unethical than i thought. With all its actions to limit the use of its calcs for games and programming and making people buy it by discontinuing older models, why why why is TI acting not like a proper company and like one that wants to get money???
I've always liked Casio better,however i swayed towards TI when I originally learnt about all its calcs and how it had more dominance than Casio (in general). Now, I'm swaying back to preferring Casio calcs, and this Prizm is a big incentive...
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That just makes TI even more unethical than i thought. With all its actions to limit the use of its calcs for games and programming and making people buy it by discontinuing older models, why why why is TI acting not like a proper company and like one that wants to get money???
One word: monopoly. Yes, they have competitors (Casio, HP and now Staples), but Casio/HP/Staples graphing calc sales are a joke compared to TI. In most developed countries, you will rarely ever see a Casio calc in schools. Almost everyone buy TI calcs even if they're so expensive. TI does nothing because they do not have enough competition. If that new Casio calc starts hurting TI sales (and I hope), this might convince TI to try harder at making decent products.
Heck, normally you go on a Casio site and everyone will bash TI and praise Casio, and the opposite will happen with TI websites, but with the Nspire thing, now even on TI websites we are starting to praise Casio and bash TI. That tells how bad it got.
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I wish Casio would have chosen the more standard 320x240 (QVGA) for the LCD.
edit: Staples makes graphing calculators?
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Yeah, but they are really bad. They graph, but that's about it (besides scientific functions of course)
http://www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/cat_sku.asp?CatIds=69%2C114,118&webid=585510&affixedcode=WW
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The more powerful they get, the more boring they become :).
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I wish Casio would have chosen the more standard 320x240 (QVGA) for the LCD.
Then it could be a gameboy advance emulator ;) Then again, I would be much happier if it had an SDK, otherwise what is the point? I want to MAKE games, not just PLAY them. I also want to make a new oop programming language, which I started on the ti8x calcs, but I might make it for this as an alternative to ASM and casio-basic ;)
In that case, I would really need a lot of help, as I know z80 asm really well but have no idea what the microprocessor for this calc is ...
Again, I really think this site is amazing! I can't believe how active it is for a programming forum!
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I wish Casio would have chosen the more standard 320x240 (QVGA) for the LCD.
Then it could be a gameboy advance emulator ;) Then again, I would be much happier if it had an SDK, otherwise what is the point? I want to MAKE games, not just PLAY them. I also want to make a new oop programming language, which I started on the ti8x calcs, but I might make it for this as an alternative to ASM and casio-basic ;)
In that case, I would really need a lot of help, as I know z80 asm really well but have no idea what the microprocessor for this calc is ...
Again, I really think this site is amazing! I can't believe how active it is for a programming forum!
Welcome to Omnimaga, by the way- I missed your earlier post.
If the chip is modern enough (read- not 30+ years old like the z80 and 68k), there would be no need for a new OOP language because C++ could be ported directly. (The Nspire, for instance, could easily support C++ once all the libraries get ported).
And the Casio Classpad's official SDK was a C++ compiler. Maybe the Prizm's will be as well...
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well then I'm sad because I'm out of work, but happy because I don't have to work ;)
Looks like I'll be downloading axe 0.4.5 and makin' some more arcade games until january.
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Hopefully the CPU on this will be decent-porting DOOM would be awesome
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I would bet that would be easily possible; just look at that thing ;)
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The more powerful they get, the more boring they become :).
True, but it is not great if you can't even do anything at all on a device, though (or when almost nobody can play your games). Some power is welcome, but yeah, it's cool when it's a bit limited, still, since it makes our stuff look more like an achievement. :)
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But the more powerful, the bigger our achievements can be ;D
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The more powerful they get, the more boring they become :).
True, but it is not great if you can't even do anything at all on a device, though (or when almost nobody can play your games). Some power is welcome, but yeah, it's cool when it's a bit limited, still, since it makes our stuff look more like an achievement. :)
Very, very true. This is why greyscale games are held in such high esteem (altough they are a bit more trivial now thanks to axe :D). However the achievements for this calc maybe very obvious as well, how about stepping up from 2D to 3D? and if the proccesor is powerful enough why not implent a fully functional physics system? maybe even make a on-calc 'gamemaker(http://www.yoyogames.com)' tool? All I am trying to say is that there is still plenty to achieve even on a calc as powerful as this one. From what I see from the video the GUI could use a makeover I personally find it very ugly...
I can't wait to get my hands on to this calc moreover because I never got the balls of casio's programming languages...I hope they support some sort of C or maybe python like language...
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I agree. If only I knew how to program in 3d...
That is my biggest weakness. Looks like I wont be held in high esteem with this new calc ;D
But I'm wondering, if everybody is interested in it, is there going to be a subforum in the future for this calc along with the other TI calc forums?
Because I doubt UTI will have it (based on it's name)
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Well for now we do not have calc-specific sub-forums. For example, C language is for 68K, TI-Nspire and z88dk (83+). Later I may add a sub-forum for the new calc languages, though, if it gets too cluttered. :)
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Sounds good. It would be pretty awesome if this place supported TI and Casio -- that's a LOT of creative projects coming in ;)
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All I am trying to say is that there is still plenty to achieve even on a calc as powerful as this one. From what I see from the video the GUI could use a makeover I personally find it very ugly...
I can't wait to get my hands on to this calc moreover because I never got the balls of casio's programming languages...I hope they support some sort of C or maybe python like language...
I don't think CasPython would be a very good choice. Python is already a slow language even on massively more powerful computers. A small calculator isn't a good platform for an interpreted language. Just look at TI-BASIC.
Anyway, with a better processor (and more memory), someone could build a music player. No more TI-84+ quality sound. We can move up to $5 drugstore player sound!
*Amazed at the possibility of porting Black to the Prizm*
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correct but I was more reffering to the ease of use of python versus the (compiled) complexity of C-like languages
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yeah, but maybe it would be cool if you could interpret it to see how a program works then compile it for full speed?
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BASIC isn't slow at all on Nspires, though. Just depends on what proc the Prizm's gonna use.
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very true, and if you look at the code for the BASIc parser, they interpret it in such a way that it wastes many thousands of T states, so a custom interpreter like BBC basic showed that faster interpreted languages could be done.
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well, TI better start getting to work!
They have really screwed up
I assume casio did this to get us nspire-infuriated people on their side...
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I think this is the very first calc with a 16:9 widescreen :)
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I think this is the very first calc with a 16:9 widescreen :)
Lol, true. HDTV, anyone? ;D
EDIT: You know what this means, though? We can finally truly calcroll people! :D
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If this thing's gonna have programing capabilities, I am sooo gonna get one.
I think this is the very first calc with a 16:9 widescreen :)
Lol, true. HDTV, anyone? ;D
Why stop there? Why not internetz!
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Sounds good. It would be pretty awesome if this place supported TI and Casio -- that's a LOT of creative projects coming in ;)
Technically, Omnimaga already supported HP and Casio as well back in 2005-07. Go to the downloads section and check out the RPG section: There are plenty of Casio and HP programs there. However, we failed to attract Casio/HP programmers with this so I pretty much gave up on the idea. To work this time, I think some of us will have to program a bit for the Casio Prizm too, to attract new Casio members.
All I am trying to say is that there is still plenty to achieve even on a calc as powerful as this one. From what I see from the video the GUI could use a makeover I personally find it very ugly...
I can't wait to get my hands on to this calc moreover because I never got the balls of casio's programming languages...I hope they support some sort of C or maybe python like language...
I don't think CasPython would be a very good choice. Python is already a slow language even on massively more powerful computers. A small calculator isn't a good platform for an interpreted language. Just look at TI-BASIC.
Anyway, with a better processor (and more memory), someone could build a music player. No more TI-84+ quality sound. We can move up to $5 drugstore player sound!
*Amazed at the possibility of porting Black to the Prizm*
It depends, BBC Basic for the 83+ seems to do a pretty good job at speed even if it's interpreted, yet it's for 6 MHz calcs. It's slower than Axe and ASM, though.
BASIC isn't slow at all on Nspires, though.
Except commands that display stuff on the screen:
I think this is the very first calc with a 16:9 widescreen :)
Yeah I think it is, although it is not the first widescreen calc. The TI-85, 86, Casio FX-9850G/9950G/9750G and 9860G series got 2:1 screens of 128x64 pixels.
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Widescreen schmidescreen. ;D
I would rather see QVGA (320x240)... much better for emulating legacy gaming platforms.
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ASHBAD ALVIN, That would be a great idea, having both TI and Casio topics.
Hopefully the Prizm will have lots of programming capabilities...
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well, TI better start getting to work!
The problem is they have forgotten what the word "work" is meaning since 2006...
(2006 is for Nspire prototypes, the last "big" thing they've done... after that , nothing or allmost nothing was done at the software or hardware level for any of their calculators...)
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How hard is it for them to make a dumb touchpad to go with their nspire... :(
Ti will have to wake up now or else they are going to lose more than half of their 3rd party developers (who own like 25% of their calcs )
EDIT: okay, maybe 10%ish, but there are still 30% of calc owners who don't program but just download games)
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I would say maybe 1%, because there is most likely about 100000 graphing calc owners minimum at once in the world and I have serious doubts there are currently 1000 active calc programmers in the world. On Omnimaga forums, if you check around 11:59 PM on the board index, you'll notice that there are about 90 people logging in every day and we don't even have close to 1000 members anyway. This is why there are little chances that they would listen to the community.
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I would say maybe 1%, because there is most likely about 100000 graphing calc owners minimum at once in the world and I have serious doubts there are currently 1000 active calc programmers in the world. On Omnimaga forums, if you check around 11:59 PM on the board index, you'll notice that there are about 90 people logging in every day and we don't even have close to 1000 members anyway. This is why there are little chances that they would listen to the community.
Oh, I see now why TI doesn't like us at all ;D
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Holy crap! I saw this and I was like O_O. Oh and hi everybody!/me runs and hides
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I don't think this calculator is very programmable.At least not for any big shot labor intensive programs or high quality games. Reasons:
1.Not enough memory(8MB)
2.Games won't be very fun on such a small screen. this applys for all calculators.
3.It is hard program certain computer languages on this calc. java does not run very good on it.
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I wonder if it will be banned on the SAT and AP and stuff.
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I don't think this calculator is very programmable.At least not for any big shot labor intensive programs or high quality games. Reasons:
1.Not enough memory(8MB)
2.Games won't be very fun on such a small screen. this applys for all calculators.
Well, it has more memory and a larger screen when compared to other calculators that have great games...
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This calc has a huge screen (bigger than the Nspire)...
Also, I believe it has already been approved for the SAT, AP, and ACT tests.
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Do you think this is better than the ti- Nspire? I would say this is about he same quality as the ti-89.
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This calculator does not have a built in CAS, so it is hard to judge. Math wise, the TI-89 is probably better considering that it does have a CAS. Likewise, the Nspire CAS is probably better for this reason. Compared to the regular TI-Nspire, math wise, they are probably about the same. Programming wise, I cannot give my opinion until I know whether the PRIZM supports ASM/C.
btw, Welcome here, Thegame!
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do you think the ~300,000% increase in memory will be sufficient for the ~3,000,000% increase in number of colors?
(i don't know anything about anything about programming in color :x)
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Do you think this is better than the ti- Nspire? I would say this is about he same quality as the ti-89.
RAM-wise, it will not be as good as the 89T, as it has over 100 KB less, but Archive-wise, it will be much better. The TI-89T has 2.7 MB of flash memory, while the Prizm has 10.
Also welcome on the forums. And welcome back Art Of Camelot :D
Btw while it advertises 61 KB of RAM, maybe it got much more RAM than that for video and other stuff. The TI-81 had 8 KB of RAM, but only 2.4 KB was available for the user. Maybe the Prizm got something like 512 KB?
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I don't think this calculator is very programmable.At least not for any big shot labor intensive programs or high quality games. Reasons:
1.Not enough memory(8MB)
2.Games won't be very fun on such a small screen. this applys for all calculators.
Both the memory and LCD specs already exceed many of the other graphing calculators out there now, and the existing calcs have some pretty fun games despite the hardware limitations (though this is a subjective thing that depends on one's opinion). I don't see this as necessarily being an indication that programmability won't very good. We'll just have to wait and see what the details are.
I don't think the screen size will be too much of a problem, either. If I understand correctly, it's even bigger than the original Nintendo Gameboy/Gameboy Color, and that didn't stop there from being lots of enjoyable (to me, at least) games for those platforms. Add in color, and the effective resolution is in some ways even higher since strategic use of color can create the illusion of there being more detail using fewer pixels. I feel, though, that graphics aren't everything when it comes to a fun game—the actual gameplay is what matters most.
61 KB RAM seems fairly low and may be a problem for highly advaced games, but that's assuming the unit really has that amount as an absolute maximum. It's possible that there may be additional “hidden” or system RAM that can be used, at least by ASM or apps (assuming they are supported).
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ASM/C might be only for flash apps, which look like they could be much larger O.o
but to store a 16bit depth pic for viewing, it would be a LOT of memory, so maybe it DOES have hidden RAM just for that stuff
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Well aren't apps ran directly from archive?
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yep, so they can be much larger, up to 10mb to be exact :D
that's why apps are so awesome in the ASM world
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In the specs, it says it gets about 140 hours on batteries, I believe.
Wow 140 hours, I wonder if that's at the full processing power, cuz if it's the case, it's really epic o.o.
140 hours of battery life is estimated based on 5 minutes of processor-heavy calculations and 55 minutes of "rest" per hour. (This is the graphing calculator standard for estimated battery use.) For reference, most current GCs offer 120-140 hours of life.
Helpful in this regard is the battery usage meter in Prizm's status bar.
The Prizm will also accept an optional 85-hour rechargeable battery.
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The Classpad 330 had 512kb of RAM, so the Prizm's should be at least that or more.
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I'm guessing you accidentally put your new post in the quotes. Nice to meet you! (to Tresio)
I think I read somewhere that with certain heavy duty batteries it can last 250 hours.
fb39ca: so I guess it's just 61k for casio-basic programming, and more for ASM (or so I really hope)
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Ah nice. I wonder how it will be when playing games (if they're possible). Hopefully it will be better than the Nspire. The TI-Nspire used to be 10x worse than it used to be, though. With OS 1.6 in 84+ mode I spent a set of batteries in one week while on OS 1.7 it would last 2.
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Yeah, it gets the 250hr figure with alkalines.
I don't think it'll be banned on the tests, otherwise it would lower sales.
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true. Their battery tests say that they tested it on the main screen for equations, so games might take double the power (or something).
Quesstimate: it'll last an average of 90 hours when playing constant games
It's also been aproved for all the tests already.
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edit: "With Casio, academic achievement never looked so good. The new fx-CG10/PRIZM is approved for use on the ACT, PSAT, SAT and AP Exams." (http://www.casioeducation.com/prizm/blue)
if it's approved on all those exams, i doubt the math functions are as helpful as a nSpire CAS or TI 89, though.
The Prizm is definitely a non-CAS calculator. Ignoring programming for a moment, and considering only the out-of-the-box calculation capabilities, it's very difficult to compare Prizm and TI-89, because they have very different intended purposes. Similarly with NSpire CAS (though NSpire non-CAS would allow a more fair comparison).
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yeah, so I think the Prizm is more based on the fact it's got the color screen and probably superior graphing capabilities rather than a CAS (which could be a project for us programmers to create :D)
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I'm guessing you accidentally put your new post in the quotes. Nice to meet you! (to Tresio)
Yeah - noticed that a few seconds after I posted. Sorry - it's fixed now.
And thanks for the greeting - I was searching the web for Prizm info, and found your forums! (Wish these had existed when I was in high school programming the TI-81...)
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well I realized that they were cool forums two days ago and I already love it -- I bet you will too. :D
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I just realized if I took this to school, they might think its a cell phone. XD
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Yeah , that would erally suck, as my teacher almost took away my 84+ cuz' I was making a wallball physics game on it (now on TICALC.org -- call now and get 2 for only 19.95!)
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Nah TI is not discontinuing the whole line. If you read in the latest pages of the 84+ topic, you'll see that it is only in Germany and Swiss, as well as a few other european countries. However, if TI decides to change their mind and discontinue it everywhere in a near future, they're pretty much screwed.
It's only a matter of time. That's the beginning of the end for the 84. Same process happened with the 85 and 86, despite major protestations and signed petitions by teachers.
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as you can see, TI hates the world. So I'm going casio ;D
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nooooooooo! :P
if everyone leaves, TI will become more corrupt, and we will never "domesticate" then. XD
and plus, if Casio succeeds, well, lets just say every successful company will want to take advantage of blind custumers. (teachers) ;)
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61Kb of RAM really? It is going to need 162Kb if video RAM just to display a full screen picture.
Well, apparently not, because it has 30+ pre-loaded images and flipbook-like image-sequences. Part of the beauty of a high-res screen is the ability to superimpose mathematics directly on top of image files.
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nooooooooo! :P
if everyone leaves, TI will become more corrupt, and we will never "domesticate" then. XD
and plus, if Casio succeeds, well, lets just say every successful company will want to take advantage of blind custumers. (teachers) ;)
jk ;)
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maybe these will make people finally realize the truth that should have been apparant when the programmables first came out: Calcs were NEVER meant for math. ;D
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lol very true ;D
I use my calc (84+) for math about 5% of the time
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I personally believe that it will have some sort of BASIC language for it, considering that the lower right hand button has "EXE" on it, if not at least assembler support.
*tloz pictures Project M in color*
EXE is Casio's standard key for execution of commands - similar to "Enter" or "=" on other calculators. It has nothing specifically to do with programming per se.
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yeah, when I saw that I was thinking that it was a super programmable calc, until I looked it up :(
disappointed...
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lol very true ;D
I use my calc (84+) for math about 5% of the time
the only time I use it for math is when I make a program to brute force something with loops and to check my math. :P
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the last time I used it was to see I fi could make a BASIC program that calculated the modulus of 3+ numbers
And in geometry HN of course :D
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A final note, the North American Prizm (fx-CG10) seems to be a bit crippled than the other Prizm (fx-CG20). From what it sounds like, images and movies (in CASIO's g3p format) created on a fx-CG20 cannot be opened on a fx-CG10, unless it was provided by Casio (On Casio's site you can download images/movies from their gallery: http://edu.casio.com/products/cg_series/materials.html) The fx-CG20 can open images and movies from both the fx-CG20 and fx-CG10. This was probably done so it would conform to testing standards in the US.
Exactly. The images and flipbook-like image collections are of proprietary file types. This pleases testing agencies and school administrations.
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It's amazing how casio announces that teachers will love it even before they realized techers would use sliderules if they were allowed to so they could "challenge the student" :P :P :P
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The TI-Nspire used to be 10x worse than it used to be, though.
Why do I feel like I've entered a temporal loop? (Hey, look, I think I just saw yesterday's today version of myself...)
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maybe these will make people finally realize the truth that should have been apparant when the programmables first came out: Calcs were NEVER meant for math. ;D
Yeah, I have NEVER used my Nspire for math after installing Ndless.
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61 KB RAM seems fairly low and may be a problem for highly advaced games, but that's assuming the unit really has that amount as an absolute maximum. It's possible that there may be additional “hidden” or system RAM that can be used, at least by ASM or apps (assuming they are supported).
Low RAM isn't an insurmountable problem if ASM is supported. Code swapping would allow some incredibly impressive games, particularly if the Archives are utilized.
EDIT: Am I the only person here who uses their calc for math?
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Exactly, so we could split a game into various different programs and do some archiving and stuff.
But I just realized that a 8x8 sprite in 16bit depth screens is 128 bytes! Wow that's like 16 B&W ones on a Ti8x
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The TI-Nspire used to be 10x worse than it used to be, though.
Why do I feel like I've entered a temporal loop? (Hey, look, I think I just saw yesterday's today version of myself...)
Lol bad typo of my part. I meant it used to be 10x in earlier OSes. The earlier OSes drained batteries like crazy. (the new ones still do, but not this much)
Also I am wondering if schools won't try to make Casio not allow custom images to be installed on the calcs? I get worried schools will start banning them when students starts loading porn on their calc x.x
EDIT: Am I the only person here who uses their calc for math?
What are maths? ;D
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Exactly, so we could split a game into various different programs and do some archiving and stuff.
But I just realized that a 8x8 sprite in 16bit depth screens is 128 bytes! Wow that's like 16 B&W ones on a Ti8x
Gonna be hard to port Axe there x.x
But if it supports C, though...
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Also I am wondering if schools won't try to make Casio not allow custom images to be installed on the calcs? I get worried schools will start banning them when students starts loading porn on their calc x.x
The Prizm IS porn... nerd porn that is :P
/jk
/creepy
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I get worried schools will start banning them when students starts loading porn on their calc x.x
I wonder what equation would graph over that... maybe y=x^3? ;D
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Also I am wondering if schools won't try to make Casio not allow custom images to be installed on the calcs? I get worried schools will start banning them when students starts loading porn on their calc x.x
Schools never have had a problem with TI-8x calcs having custom images, though ;D
J/k, I seriously doubt if anyone would actually use calcs for that... I think schools are just going to treat them the same way they treat comps: if they catch you with porn on it, you get in big trouble, but they wouldn't bother to actually search all the comps for images like that.
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Chances are, the people who COULD put porn on their calcs are also likely to be the people to fill that space with the sheer awesomeness of WFRNG.
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61 KB RAM seems fairly low and may be a problem for highly advaced games, but that's assuming the unit really has that amount as an absolute maximum. It's possible that there may be additional “hidden” or system RAM that can be used, at least by ASM or apps (assuming they are supported).
Low RAM isn't an insurmountable problem if ASM is supported. Code swapping would allow some incredibly impressive games, particularly if the Archives are utilized.
I think there is some misunderstanding. The 61KB of memory is for storing BASIC programs and other user data (your graphs, math input history, calculator settings, etc.) 61KB of RAM wouldn't be enough to run the OS the Prizm or the fx-9860G use. Looking around the Casio's site, I can see no mention of the 61KB as being RAM. Instead, they call the 61KB as program memory, which is what it really is since it's for storing BASIC programs. The previous generation, fx-9860G has 64KB of BASIC program memory, with 512KB of RAM available for C/ASM apps.
In the Casio world, we call our flash apps or asm app: addins. We don't really use assembly since Casio provides us with a C SDK (complete with compiler and emulator) and C is more convenient for programming. I guess you could program in assembly, but the processors are probably too complex (compared to Z80 or 68K) to be coded by hand in assembly.
The RAM in the Casio Prizm has gotta be at least more than 739KB, since the Geometry addin for the Prizm is ~739KB. The addins have to be loaded into RAM before execution. Considering that some of the RAM is also used by the operating system, best bets are that the Prizm contains maybe an 8MB RAM chip with 1MB or 2MB usable RAM for C/ASM apps. That would make sense, because the previous generation, the fx-9860G has 4MB RAM chip with 512KB of usable RAM.
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In the Casio world, we call our flash apps or asm app: addins. We don't really use assembly since Casio provides us with a C SDK (complete with compiler and emulator) and C is more convenient for programming. I guess you could program in assembly, but the processors are probably too complex (compared to Z80 or 68K) to be coded by hand in assembly.
TI could learn something from them x.x
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Ah ok I see. Well, the TI-83+ has 32 KB of RAM (24 for the user) and still manages to run an OS fine. The OS is just stored in the archive/flash. Most flash applications/add-ons are also ran directly from flash.
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Ah ok I see. Well, the TI-83+ has 32 KB of RAM (24 for the user) and still manages to run an OS fine. The OS is just stored in the archive/flash. Most flash applications/add-ons are also ran directly from flash.
I thought it was 48k ram with an extra page...?
maybe I'm wrong I guess :P
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The plain 83+ has no such thing ;)
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oh, I'm thinking of my 84+ :D
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Ah ok I see. Well, the TI-83+ has 32 KB of RAM (24 for the user) and still manages to run an OS fine. The OS is just stored in the archive/flash. Most flash applications/add-ons are also ran directly from flash.
I thought it was 48k ram with an extra page...?
maybe I'm wrong I guess :P
RAM: 32 KB plain 83+, 128 KB old 84+, 48 KB new 84+.
What's the difference between non-SEs and SEs, btw?
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Pages are only for the Archives. The 24 User Kb is the amount of Random Access Memory you have.
I think there is some misunderstanding. The 61KB of memory is for storing BASIC programs and other user data (your graphs, math input history, calculator settings, etc.) 61KB of RAM wouldn't be enough to run the OS the Prizm or the fx-9860G use. Looking around the Casio's site, I can see no mention of the 61KB as being RAM. Instead, they call the 61KB as program memory, which is what it really is since it's for storing BASIC programs. The previous generation, fx-9860G has 64KB of BASIC program memory, with 512KB of RAM available for C/ASM apps.
In the Casio world, we call our flash apps or asm app: addins. We don't really use assembly since Casio provides us with a C SDK (complete with compiler and emulator) and C is more convenient for programming. I guess you could program in assembly, but the processors are probably too complex (compared to Z80 or 68K) to be coded by hand in assembly.
I refuse to use C or any variant thereof. I'll learn the ASM if I need to. But good to know.
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mostly more archive memory and speed
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Pages are only for the Archives. The 24 User Kb is the amount of Random Access Memory you have.
I think there is some misunderstanding. The 61KB of memory is for storing BASIC programs and other user data (your graphs, math input history, calculator settings, etc.) 61KB of RAM wouldn't be enough to run the OS the Prizm or the fx-9860G use. Looking around the Casio's site, I can see no mention of the 61KB as being RAM. Instead, they call the 61KB as program memory, which is what it really is since it's for storing BASIC programs. The previous generation, fx-9860G has 64KB of BASIC program memory, with 512KB of RAM available for C/ASM apps.
In the Casio world, we call our flash apps or asm app: addins. We don't really use assembly since Casio provides us with a C SDK (complete with compiler and emulator) and C is more convenient for programming. I guess you could program in assembly, but the processors are probably too complex (compared to Z80 or 68K) to be coded by hand in assembly.
I refuse to use C or any variant thereof. I'll learn the ASM if I need to. But good to know.
lol I might learn the ASM too -- I like ASM too much to give it up. But I'll be doing that at th esame time I'm making games with C ;D
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Double-post ;)
Do any of TI's calcs support C by themselves?
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I don't believe so -- and the double post was another infamous accident of mine ;D
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It seems there's been some confusion bewteen RAM and ROM in some posts above.
TI's applications are stored in ROM (Flash-ROM).
Casio's add-ins are equivalent, and are stored in ROM too.
So the geometry add-in has nothing to do with the RAM of the Prizm.
Let's sum up things again! To my knowledge:
TI-83: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (27Kb available to the user), 256Kb ROM
TI-73: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 512Kb ROM (64-192Kb available to the user, depending upon the installed OS)
TI-83+: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 512Kb ROM (160Kb available to the user)
TI-83+SE: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-84+ old: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 1Mb ROM (480Kb available to the user)
TI-84+SE old: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-84+ new: 16MHz, 48Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 1Mb ROM (480Kb available to the user)
TI-84+SE new: 16MHz, 48Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-Nspire with 84+ keypad: ??MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
All those RAM/ROM informations are gathered in my following (french) document, and illustrated by various charts:
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=archives&ac=voir&id=1130
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It seems there's been some confusion bewteen RAM and ROM in some posts above.
TI's applications are stored in ROM (Flash-ROM).
Casio's add-ins are equivalent, and are stored in ROM too.
So the geometry add-in has nothing to do with the RAM of the Prizm.
Let's sum up things again! To my knowledge:
TI-83: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (27Kb available to the user), 256Kb ROM
TI-73: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 512Kb ROM (64-192Kb available to the user, depending upon the installed OS)
TI-83+: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 512Kb ROM (160Kb available to the user)
TI-83+SE: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-84+ old: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 1Mb ROM (480Kb available to the user)
TI-84+SE old: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-84+ new: 16MHz, 48Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 1Mb ROM (480Kb available to the user)
TI-84+SE new: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-Nspire with 84+ keypad: ??MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
All those RAM/ROM informations are gathered in my following (french) document, and illustrated by various charts:
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=archives&ac=voir&id=1130
Ah, thanks. I actually got it right? O.O :D
So basically, the only difference between non-SEs and SEs is in mem ... wow.
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I think there's also a slight difference in speed between the 84+ and the 84+ SE.
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Double-post ;)
Do any of TI's calcs support C by themselves?
The 89/92+/V200 have an official SDK from TI for the making of flash apps, programmed in C.
But it's a crappy C compiler, so no one uses it anymore (unless someone needs to make a flash app). People use TIGCC/GCC4TI or maybe GTC instead.
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It seems there's been some confusion bewteen RAM and ROM in some posts above.
TI's applications are stored in ROM (Flash-ROM).
Casio's add-ins are equivalent, and are stored in ROM too.
So the geometry add-in has nothing to do with the RAM of the Prizm.
Let's sum up things again! To my knowledge:
TI-83: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (27Kb available to the user), 256Kb ROM
TI-73: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 512Kb ROM (64-192Kb available to the user, depending upon the installed OS)
TI-83+: 6MHz, 32Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 512Kb ROM (160Kb available to the user)
TI-83+SE: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-84+ old: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 1Mb ROM (480Kb available to the user)
TI-84+SE old: 16MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-84+ new: 16MHz, 48Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 1Mb ROM (480Kb available to the user)
TI-84+SE new: 16MHz, 48Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
TI-Nspire with 84+ keypad: ??MHz, 128Kb RAM (24Kb available to the user), 2Mb ROM (1.5Mb available to the user)
All those RAM/ROM informations are gathered in my following (french) document, and illustrated by various charts:
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=archives&ac=voir&id=1130
I thought the 83+SE/84+ had 15 Mhz processors, not 16 MHz? ???
@Qwerty not really, it's pretty much the same. There are reports that the 83+SE BASIC is slightly faster than the 84+ and 84+SE though.
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DJ -> The TI-89Titanium HW4 is supposed to run at 15MHz.
For the TI-84+, many sites are mentionning 16MHz. Others are mentionning 15MHz, but it might be a confusion with the TI-89Titanium...
I admit that 15MHz would be more logic (6*2.5) if we think to overclocking. But I don't know if the calculator is using such a multiplier. I've allways read of resistors or capacitors you had to change...
I think there's also a slight difference in speed between the 84+ and the 84+ SE.
Never experienced any difference, neither read of it.
Double-post ;)
Do any of TI's calcs support C by themselves?
The 89/92+/V200 have an official SDK from TI for the making of flash apps, programmed in C.
But it's a crappy C compiler, so no one uses it anymore (unless someone needs to make a flash app). People use TIGCC/GCC4TI or maybe GTC instead.
The TI-73/83+/84+/83+SE/84+SE also have an official SDK including an emulator and a debugger.
It looks like that:
(http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/13/23/13/53/ti83ps10.jpg)
You can download it here:
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=archives&ac=voir&id=1291
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Yeah I remember downloading that from TI website. MY TI-83+SE CD has an even older version that has no TI-83+SE support and doesn't support 8xg files.
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I remember using that SDK once ... it sucked :P
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Yeah I remember downloading that from TI website. MY TI-83+SE CD has an even older version that has no TI-83+SE support and doesn't support 8xg files.
No problem! ;)
We've also kept the older version without 83+SE support just for you! :p
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=archives&ac=voir&id=1372
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Lol nice. I remember having hours and hours of pleasure with that version, trying to get group files to work. Ugh x.x
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@Qwerty not really, it's pretty much the same. There are reports that the 83+SE BASIC is slightly faster than the 84+ and 84+SE though.
I remember something about the 84+ being a couple of cycles faster for some commands than the 84+ SE.
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Oh, not that. That's the first emulator I ever used. Once I found Wabbit I never touched the Flash debugger ever again. ;D
I believe the 83+SE, 84+, and 84+SE are 15mhz calcs, but I may be mistaken. :)
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Double-post ;)
Do any of TI's calcs support C by themselves?
The 89/92+/V200 have an official SDK from TI for the making of flash apps, programmed in C.
But it's a crappy C compiler, so no one uses it anymore (unless someone needs to make a flash app). People use TIGCC/GCC4TI or maybe GTC instead.
The TI-73/83+/84+/83+SE/84+SE also have an official SDK including an emulator and a debugger.
I know that. But he asked if any calcs supported C, not if they had SDKs. It just happens that the 68k SDK has a C compiler included.
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@Qwerty not really, it's pretty much the same. There are reports that the 83+SE BASIC is slightly faster than the 84+ and 84+SE though.
I remember something about the 84+ being a couple of cycles faster for some commands than the 84+ SE.
Don't know, but the TI-Nspire in 84+ mode (it's emulating an old 84+SE) is doing something like that...
It's a little slower than a true 84+ in general, but much faster for some commands.
For example, with MathPrint, the text Disp/Output commands are faster on the Nspire emulated 84+ than on a true 84+.
They still remain slower than without MathPrint.
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It seems there's been some confusion bewteen RAM and ROM in some posts above.
TI's applications are stored in ROM (Flash-ROM).
Casio's add-ins are equivalent, and are stored in ROM too.
So the geometry add-in has nothing to do with the RAM of the Prizm.
Yes, Casio addins are stored in ROM (Flash). But to be executed, it has to be loaded into the RAM. Well, at least, it's how it's done on Casio calcs. I believe this is true actually for TI and Casio calcs. Flash is good for storage, but not good for running programs off of and is very slow (compared to RAM). Read and write cycles will shorten down the life of the flash chip and kill it. TI's I think do this too: copies program from Flash and places them into a space of RAM reserved by the OS to be executed. I'm pretty sure the TI-89 does that for sure. On Z80 based TI-8X's, portions of a program are copied into RAM when necessary by code banking (or as some of you call code swapping) due to the 16-bit addressing limit on the Z80.
I think a lot of confusion comes from the way TI uses it's RAM (to store user data), whereas Casio uses it's RAM in a more modern computer-ish way. (The 61KB of BASIC program memory is actually a tiny chunk of Flash. On the fx-9860G, a hack was done to expand the available BASIC programming storage from 64KB to I think 300KB since it's just Flash memory, not RAM. The RAM is completely separate from the 61KB)
A better way to explain this is to use your computer as an example. All your programs are stored on your hard drive, not in your RAM. When you want to run a program, the program is loaded from the hard drive to your RAM and hence RAM get's used up (this also explains why if you have a slow hard drive, booting up will take longer). Running the program from hard drive will kill your hard drive and is extremely slow. On our calcs, we use Flash instead of a hard drive, but it's basically the same idea.
Someone with enough knowledge about TI hardware is gonna have to confirm if TI calcs do this too.
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Strange, I swear some flash APPS runs fine even when you're almost out of user RAM, on a 83+. Example, you got 200 bytes of free RAM and still can run MirageOS. I know there are SafeRAM areas but I doubt only about 2 KB of code is copied to the calc at a time. It might be good that someone like Calc84maniac, BrandonW, FloppusMaximus, KermMartian or ThePenguin77 confirms this.
Also I thought only rewriting the flash chip sectors weared it out, not reading?
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I am 100% sure that the TI-83+ to TI-84+SE run Apps directly from Archive.
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It seems there's been some confusion bewteen RAM and ROM in some posts above.
TI's applications are stored in ROM (Flash-ROM).
Casio's add-ins are equivalent, and are stored in ROM too.
So the geometry add-in has nothing to do with the RAM of the Prizm.
Yes, Casio addins are stored in ROM (Flash). But to be executed, it has to be loaded into the RAM. My experience with programming on the fx-9860G tells me this. I believe this is true actually for TI and Casio calcs. Flash is good for storage, but not good for running programs off of and is very slow (compared to RAM). Read and write cycles will shorten down the life of the flash chip and kill it. TI's I think do this too: copies program from Flash and places them into a space of RAM reserved by the OS to be executed. I'm pretty sure the TI-89 does that for sure. On Z80 based TI-8X's, portions of a program are copied into RAM when necessary by code banking (or as some of you call code swapping) due to the 16-bit addressing limit on the Z80.
I think a lot of confusion comes from the way TI uses it's RAM (to store user data), whereas Casio uses it's RAM in a more modern computer-ish way. (The 61KB of BASIC program memory is actually a tiny chunk of Flash. On the fx-9860G, a hack was done to expand the available BASIC programming storage from 64KB to I think 300KB since it's just Flash memory, not RAM. The RAM is completely separate from the 61KB)
Interesting...
So it's like the TI-Nspire.
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. :)
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Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. :)
Yes, thank you. I've been learning a lot with every word you post. :)
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Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. :)
Yes, thank you. I've been learning a lot with every word you post. :)
Ditto. I think there needs to be a unified Casio-TI forum. The calcs are similar enough for it.
EDIT: Also, there are types of Flash that can execute almost as quickly as RAM. I doubt TI spent the money to implement them, but perhaps one of the people mentioned previously could comment.
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Well the thing is that there are already some Casio forums: CasioKingdom and Casiocalc. There are some french forums too, so it may be hard for us to attract Casio users with so many TI users around. It would be cool, though. There could be a TI-BASIC to Casio BASIC or Casio BASIC to TI-BASIC transition tutorial for those who want to program for both at once.
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I'm just guessing and I could be totally wrong, because I'm not a TI guy, but the portion of RAM used by the OS is temporarily replaced by your flash app. When you close or exit out of your flash app, a system call to some portion of RAM (your SafeRAM probably?) that still contains a tiny piece of the OS that will load back the OS from the ROM to the RAM. That would explain your case of why APPS still run fine when you're almost out of RAM.
Also I thought only rewriting the flash chip sectors weared it out, not reading?
I believe that is true for most flash chips. But it would be slower to run off a program that was on Flash, than on RAM since Flash typically have longer reading cycles than RAM.
I am 100% sure that the TI-83+ to TI-84+SE run Apps directly from Archive.
Hmmm, that actually wouldn't seem very smart in a first glance, but it might make a little sense actually. It's a cheap solution. Z80 is kind of slow (compared to today's ARM and SuperH) so the CPU wouldn't be outrunning the Flash and the programs aren't extremely large (like 100KB or bigger) so not much reading would have to be done.
EDIT: Wait a sec, I don't see how this is actually possible. A Z80 has a 16-bit parallel address bus with an 8-bit parallel bus to load in 1 byte for each cycle. With 16-bit's for addressing, the Z80 would only be able to access the lowest 64KB of Flash max. Well, unless the Flash is split into 64KB memory banks and you access each one separately. Or the Z80 has been modified to have it's address bus extended beyond? And since it's running off Flash, is the data bus on the Z80 swapped or disconnected by a multiplexer and connected to the Flash's data output? But then the RAM would be disconnected and there would be no memory for stacks and variables. Or is it 32KB for program instructions and 32KB for program data (variables and stacks)? Or a 48KB/16KB memory map? I need someone here to explain what's happening. :-\
Interesting...
So it's like the TI-Nspire.
Yes, I'm pretty sure the TI-nSpire would follow the same scheme as the Prizm or fx-9860G since it uses a modern ARM processor. The TI-nSpire, needs to "boot up" by copying the OS to the RAM. If power is lost to the RAM (bad batteries, or something), it's need to be loaded back in again. That's why the TI-nSpire goes into some sort of sleep mode (instead of having power cut off to everything) so the OS stays within the RAM.
EDIT: Yep, I've been reading your guy's wiki: http://hackspire.unsads.com/wiki/index.php/Memory_layout (http://hackspire.unsads.com/wiki/index.php/Memory_layout) Quote: "Since 32MB of RAM is available, which is quite a lot, the whole OS code is decrypted from the OS image and copied to RAM at boot time, when the message "Loading Operating System..." is displayed during ~8 seconds. The RAM is also used as temporary storage transparently for the user as described above." The fx-9860G and most likely the Prizm do the same thing, except Casio's don't have that 8 second boot time. :)
Most of today's CPU's are built using Harvard architecture where the program data and instruction memory are separate. Typically, the program data are stored on a hard drive (or some device for storage such as Flash) and the instruction memory is the RAM. All PCs are built this way and almost all computers are like this.
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The transition tutorial sounds interesting. I'll get working on it. :)
EDIT: Yep, I'm going to have to learn Casio-BASIC. It's not much different than TI-BASIC though.
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For the safeRAM, there are 3 sections with 768 bytes of RAM used for the screen buffer and stuff like that, another 128 bytes section for storing content to the home screen (16x8 characters) and another section I forgot the size off (it was around 500 bytes if I remember)
Btw I forgot to mention, Kucalc, but this wiki has a lot of good calc documentation for the TI-83+: http://wikiti.brandonw.net . In case no one like BrandonW himself checks this topic soon, it might be good to go check there. I think this page might explain how Flash APPs works: http://wikiti.brandonw.net/index.php?title=83Plus:OS:Variable_Storage_in_the_User_Archive
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I am 100% sure that the TI-83+ to TI-84+SE run Apps directly from Archive.
Hmmm, that actually wouldn't seem very smart in a first glance, but it might make a little sense actually. It's a cheap solution. Z80 is kind of slow (compared to today's ARM and SuperH) so the CPU wouldn't be outrunning the Flash and the programs aren't extremely large (like 100KB or bigger) so not much reading would have to be done.
EDIT: Wait a sec, I don't see how this is actually possible. A Z80 has a 16-bit parallel address bus with an 8-bit parallel bus to load in 1 byte for each cycle. With 16-bit's for addressing, the Z80 would only be able to access the lowest 64KB of Flash max. Well, unless the Flash is split into 64KB memory banks and you access each one separately. Or the Z80 has been modified to have it's address bus extended beyond? And since it's running off Flash, is the data bus on the Z80 swapped or disconnected by a multiplexer and connected to the Flash's data output? But then the RAM would be disconnected and there would be no memory for stacks and variables. Or is it 32KB for program instructions and 32KB for program data (variables and stacks)? Or a 48KB/16KB memory map? I'll have to go read around for a bit.
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On the TI-83 Plus/TI-84 Plus, executing programs from FlashROM is indeed possible. These models don't actually use a physical Z80, but rather a SoC that has additional hardware that does things beyond what a normal Z80 would be doing. Example: Memory-mapping "pages" of FlashROM in 16KB chunks to sit evenly with the Z80's 64KB physical address space. Memory is arranged in the following manner:
First 16KB: First 16KB of FlashROM
Second 16KB: Some other 16KB "page" of FlashROM
Third 16KB: First (or second?) 16KB of RAM
Fourth 16KB: The other 16KB of RAM. In other models, this too is swappable with some other 16KB chunk of RAM.
In every case, the calculator maps in 16KB of whatever memory is needed at any given point in time. The only thing that isn't user-remappable in the TI-84 Plus series is the first 16KB of Flash, which is where the more important stuff of the OS sits.
Now. I'm not entirely sure *how* the calculator performs the pageflips, but the second 16KB of physical memory is controlled by outputting a page value to I/O port 6, and the third 16KB of physical memory is controlled by outputting a page value to I/O port 7.
All "FlashAPPs" are executed in the 0x4000-0x7FFF range (2nd physical "page"). Multipage apps are achieved by changing the value of port 6. For some obvious reasons, your code shouldn't be executing code on that page during a pageflip, but if you've coded your app creatively, you can change it that way.
For more information, see TI's SDK found here: http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/productDetail/us_sdk_73_83_84.html
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TL;DR: The calculator divides memory up into 16KB chunks. Ports are used to extend the calculator's ability to address both RAM and FlashROM by remapping them into the Z80's 64KB address space. It's the best they could do with the Z80. We're not complaining (much).
To address another concern, the calculator *is* slow enough (even at 15MHz) to run programs directly from FlashROM without needing to insert "wait cycles". Or rather, the Flash is fast enough to keep up with the Z80.
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These models don't actually use a physical Z80, but rather a SoC that has additional hardware that does things beyond what a normal Z80 would be doing. Example: Memory-mapping "pages" of FlashROM in 16KB chunks to sit evenly with the Z80's 64KB physical address space.
Ah, ok a System-on-Chip. Yeah, because there would be no way a regular Z80 would be able to do that unless you did some fancy stuff with the address and data buses.
Hmmm, that actually wouldn't seem very smart in a first glance, but it might make a little sense actually. It's a cheap solution. Z80 is kind of slow (compared to today's ARM and SuperH) so the CPU wouldn't be outrunning the Flash and the programs aren't extremely large (like 100KB or bigger) so not much reading would have to be done.
To address another concern, the calculator *is* slow enough (even at 15MHz) to run programs directly from FlashROM without needing to insert "wait cycles". Or rather, the Flash is fast enough to keep up with the Z80.
Heh, yeah, that's what I was saying.
Thanks for clearing this up Iambian. I guess I was just embarrassing myself trying to guess how TI apps get executed, thought it would be same way as Casio. :-[ I guess we now know for sure that Casio and TI (at least the TI-8x ones) load their apps differently.
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These models don't actually use a physical Z80, but rather a SoC that has additional hardware that does things beyond what a normal Z80 would be doing. Example: Memory-mapping "pages" of FlashROM in 16KB chunks to sit evenly with the Z80's 64KB physical address space.
Ah, ok a System-on-Chip. Yeah, because there would be no way a regular Z80 would be able to do that unless you did some fancy stuff with the address and data buses.
The really old TI-83's actually used a physical Z80, coupled with some fancy memory mapping hardware to let it access all of it's "ROM". While this doesn't really apply to our example since the memory isn't Flash, the concept is similar. TI just found cheaper ways to implement these schemes. They kinda ... stuck with us.
I figure that this information is only valid for your good ol' Ti-73's, TI-83+/84+(SE)s and perhaps a select few other calculators. You'd have to ask around for how the Ti-89 calcs work, though I think they work in a similar way. The Nspire is completely different and ... well. I'm not the person to ask.
The only reason I know that the old TI-83's used an actual Z80 is because I took apart some person's Ti-83 in my college's math lab and found that sucker. A honest-to-God real Z80. I'll never forget that day. I wasn't able to tell which one was the ROM, which one was the RAM, and which one was the memory mapping hardware. There was some other chip there, too. Couldn't figure out what it could possibly be doing.
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One thing I didn't knew is that the 83+ didn't use a real z80 :O
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I figure that this information is only valid for your good ol' Ti-73's, TI-83+/84+(SE)s and perhaps a select few other calculators. You'd have to ask around for how the Ti-89 calcs work, though I think they work in a similar way. The Nspire is completely different and ... well. I'm not the person to ask.
I agree. The Nspire seems completely different and more akin to what the fx-9860G and Prizm do. Reading around the Hackspire wiki, it seems that with the 32-bit ARM processor in the TI-nSpire you have a 4GB memory map, so you don't really need to do fancy page or memory swapping, since it can access a wider range of memory.
The only reason I know that the old TI-83's used an actual Z80 is because I took apart some person's Ti-83 in my college's math lab and found that sucker. A honest-to-God real Z80. I'll never forget that day. I wasn't able to tell which one was the ROM, which one was the RAM, and which one was the memory mapping hardware. There was some other chip there, too. Couldn't figure out what it could possibly be doing.
Yeah, I remember going through some schematics for a Z80 computer and noting the extra hardware it would take to break the 64KB barrier. Now these days, you've got 32 bit processors with large buses and integrated memory controllers, the extra chips aren't necessary. :)
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The really old TI-83's actually used a physical Z80, coupled with some fancy memory mapping hardware to let it access all of it's "ROM". While this doesn't really apply to our example since the memory isn't Flash, the concept is similar. TI just found cheaper ways to implement these schemes. They kinda ... stuck with us.
I figure that this information is only valid for your good ol' Ti-73's, TI-83+/84+(SE)s and perhaps a select few other calculators. You'd have to ask around for how the Ti-89 calcs work, though I think they work in a similar way. The Nspire is completely different and ... well. I'm not the person to ask.
I don't know whether they used a physical Z80 or not, but the TI-85 and 86 also used similar paging schemes. The 85, IIRC, used paged ROM (RAM was just 32K and not paged), and the 86 used paged ROM and RAM. The 81, being the first TI graphing calculator and very primitive compared to its successors, had no paging at all—it was just straight 32K ROM + 8K RAM, IIRC.
I'm not for sure how the 68K calcs are mapped, but I believe that the whole memory map (RAM, ROM, and ports) is “flat” without paging since the address size is much larger. (At least, I didn't have to deal with bank switching when writing programs like Flash Archive Undelete, which scans the whole archive portion of flash, so that at least isn't bank-switched). Someone more knowledgeable would have to answer this for sure, though.
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The reason why the Nspire takes so long to load at startup I think is because the OS is like 21 MB large or something. It takes over half of the entire archive memory (and RAM when loaded). The fact it is ran from RAM is why we are unable to install OS mods and the like. Every reboot, the entire OS would be reverted back to normal. :(
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From what I remember, platforms like the Nspire and modern PCs tend to copy ROM to RAM because RAM is faster, but my understanding is that the Z80 and 68K calcs execute most code directly from flash ROM (though archived variables and programs are temporarily copied to RAM on the 89/92+/V200; probably the same with Z80s but I'm not really a Z80 person). I figure the processors in those calculators are not fast enough for the speed difference between RAM and ROM to have a significant impact on performance.
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IIRC, the 84+ ran on 15MHz, and not 16MHz.
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The TI-89 and other 68k calcs have 24-bit memory addressing, so there is no need for swapping any memory cause that's 16MB of space to use. The OS is run from the Flash ROM (I think the Flash is fast enough to handle it, since the processor runs at ~15MHz or less; I don't know the exact details but different models have different processor speeds). Normal programs are loaded into RAM. I have no idea what happens with applications.
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Sort of related question: How is the 83+'s RAM organized? If executing programs get copied to $9D95, wouldn't it overwrite stuff in RAM?
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I believe it pushes everything to a different point in RAM (near the end) and then pops the pogram to $9D95. Not to be confused with the stack -- I just like using the words push and pop ;)
This is why programs never overwrite each other -- TI did some good programming work on their calculators ;D
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TI did some good programming work on their calculators
[Cough] B_Call 4CBD [/Cough]
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/me looks in the TI developers SDK for a minute :D
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It wastes CPU cycles. Brandonw renamed it B_call DoNothing ;)
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Never heard of it, but sounds like something TI would pull :D jk
they might have a purpose such as wasting time so that the LCD won't garble images if you send them too quick or something
But even then, I think you can do it much easier (and efficiently) with some NOPs or loading the buffer methods :P
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Wasting time can occasionally be good, but there's no need to make a 4 byte b_call for it, as far as I am aware.
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How many T states does it waste exactly?
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I'm not sure. His documentation of it is rather uninformative for that particular B_call.
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The TI-89 and other 68k calcs have 24-bit memory addressing, so there is no need for swapping any memory cause that's 16MB of space to use. The OS is run from the Flash ROM (I think the Flash is fast enough to handle it, since the processor runs at ~15MHz or less; I don't know the exact details but different models have different processor speeds). Normal programs are loaded into RAM. I have no idea what happens with applications.
Hmm I was sure the 89T had 2.7 MB of flash or something O.o. Does it really have that much hidden memory?
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So basically, whenever a program's run, the RAM is rearranged so that the program starts at $9D95, is that it? Why wouldn't changes be automatically copied back, then?
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So basically, whenever a program's run, the RAM is rearranged so that the program starts at $9D95, is that it? Why wouldn't changes be automatically copied back, then?
That's how shells work, and changes are automatically copied back in that case. But running a program with Asm( actually makes a copy of the program at $9D95 (this is why you need as much RAM free as the size of the program you are running). The copy is deleted after execution finishes.
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Ah, I see. I was wondering why Mirage allowed me to run programs with almost no free RAM at all.
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the most amazing reply of TI to this would be:
a sdk or/and asm/c support for nspire,
as this they can do simply with a software/ OS changes and wouldn't have to make a new calc...
/*
For me this would be a reason to love TI again
*/
*kyllopardiun knows it won't happens :'(
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the most amazing reply of TI to this would be:
a sdk or/and asm/c support for nspire,
as this they can do simply with a software/ OS changes and wouldn't have to make a new calc...
/*
For me this would be a reason to love TI again
*/
*kyllopardiun knows it won't happens :'(
even then, Nspire won't have 16bit depth color on it's screen, and I'm too pissed at TI for them to try just slapping together a SDK to get rid of us. No sir, I want some real effort from them. I'm already saving money for the prizm; I don't plan on switching the reserve sign from "Prizm fund" to "Nspire (which is really suckish) fund"
So I'll hate TI until their first color calc, which better be an improvement over even the prizm! And they aren't going to be doing anything in that context any time soon.
Don't get me wrong -- I love their 84+'s :D
/me grabs and stuffs his 84+ into his pocket, as he can't leave home without it :P
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Well, if they made Nspire BASIC as good as 84 BASIC, then added ASM support, you wouldn't be saying that ;)
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Well, I'd have to pick -- If Prizm has good C/ASM support AND has a good BASIc language I'll probably be sticking to my earlier point. But I doubt what you say might happen will ever indeed happen :P Which is really too bad
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Well, I do believe if TI launch an ASM support, soon will appear the most amazing OS ever,
TI nspire CAS + 84 emulator
or maybe a TI 89 emulator, as it has been done before...
it will make it the most amazing calc for math ever...
*kyllopardiun cares about math stuff in calculators
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/me does not care about math, just the damn programming :P
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/me does not care about math, just the damn programming :P
Now, thing about an average student, if you knew you could have a powerful tool with both awesome games
and math, wouldn't you pick it instead of just a basic colored thing?
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But I'm sure the "colored thing" is going to have awesome games and stuff, and the math should be simular to the normal Nspire. Plus, we can write our own CAS :P
Most students don't really need a CAS calculator till Calculus anyways, so I'm not sure If I should spend all my money on something I won't use all the math capabilities for 2-3 years, when a CAS colored calc ill come out :P
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The TI-89 and other 68k calcs have 24-bit memory addressing, so there is no need for swapping any memory cause that's 16MB of space to use. The OS is run from the Flash ROM (I think the Flash is fast enough to handle it, since the processor runs at ~15MHz or less; I don't know the exact details but different models have different processor speeds). Normal programs are loaded into RAM. I have no idea what happens with applications.
Hmm I was sure the 89T had 2.7 MB of flash or something O.o. Does it really have that much hidden memory?
I think he means that it is capable of addressing 16MB of memory. The 89T has 4MB of flash with 2.7MB for the user. There's 256K of ram with 188K for the user.
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the most amazing reply of TI to this would be:
a sdk or/and asm/c support for nspire,
For some reasons, I fear if they do that they will make it a paid software. Until 2002 or so, the TI-83+ Flash Debugger was not free. We had to pay to sign apps. If you wonder why so few app games were made back in the days, that might be why.
However, if the new calc has good programming capabilities, I am sure TI might try to release a free SDK to attempt to compete.
Also the new Casio calcs (and this topic) made Slashdot front page earlier today, while I was at work: http://slashdot.org/submission/1355718/Casio-unveils-new-color-screen-graphing-calculator . That should probably explain you why there are so many guests on the forums. If TI reads that site but not TI ones, maybe they'll see what Casio is up to :P
I really wonder what will be their response to those new calcs... can't wait for this Winter.
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The nspire looks bad, anyways a color graphic calculator loooks good, finally enough of the monocromatic 16gray tons calculators!
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I really wonder what will be their response to those new calcs... can't wait for this Winter.
If there is a response, DJ!
There may be one...
But there may not be one!
It has been clear for years that TI is not interesting into designing/building/supporting graphic calculators any more.
* TI-83+/84+ are just TI-83-like systems (1996) with a bigger Flash-ROM.
* TI-68k OSes haven't been updated since at least july 2005.
* The last TI-84+ 2.53MP OS is full of bugs and was designed too quickly just to include MathPrint (because similar features were available on the new Casio low-end graphic calculators)
* Although they have been reported online, the last TI-84+ 2.53MP OS has not been officially fixed yet.
* Most official TI z80/68k softwares (link, sdk, emulators, editors...) are difficult to run on nowadays computers. Most of them have never been updated. And the rest was only updated after years... (64bits drivers for TI-Connect for example)
* All TI-83/83+/84+ calculators are giving you a completly false answer when you type angle(-1) while being in degree mode. It just answers -Pi. A human may understand (and forget/ignore that it's supposed to be in degrees), but not a basic program.
* 2 years ago, I've informed TI of that important bug (as it is related to math). They thanked me, but never fixed it...
* The last TI-Nspire 2.1 OS has a major bug which prevents it from starting on a non-CAS Nspire with boot2 1.1 (and it cannot update the boot2 before having started fully). But TI-Nspire Computer Link still tells the users to update to 2.1. If they've just bought a new basic Nspire built in 2007/2008, the system will freeze when the progress bar reaches 100%, although the users haven't done anything unofficial.
* TI is aware of that major bug, but hasn't fixed the OS since july. TI-Cares just tell you to use the maintenance menu (welcome to TI World) to remove the OS, and to install the 1.7/2.0/2.01 OSes first, which will update boot2 1.1 to 1.4.
* the TI-Nspire screen is just crap
* the TI-Nspire is less programmable than a Casio non-Flash calculator
* TI did allmost nothing for the TI-Nspire between 2006 and 2009
* TI-Nspire are battery-eating monsters. We had to wait 4 years to get a rechargeable battery... but it's not even included in the new TI-NSpire TouchPad packs.
* TI-84+ keypad is not included any more in the new TI-Nspire TouchPad packs.
* TI may even have recently tried to discontinue the TI-84+SE
Do you need more examples?...
Let's all migrate to Casio calculators.
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OMG, so many bugs, how bad.
Migrate to Casio? Look at your sigature!
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Migrate to Casio? Look at your sigature!
Migration in progress...
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Migrate to Casio? Look at your sigature!
Migration in progress...
Lol, everybody I know uses Texas. I've had a Casio, but it was a scientific one, not a graphical one, it was quite good.
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In my opinion, it will take a while before Casio becomes a household name and completely demolish TI but I do hope it can make an impact when it appears on store shelves next year.
Maybe I should start saving money for this calc...
P.S. 100 Posts! Finally!
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I've finally made up my mind, I'm getting this calc. I'm POSITIVE it'll have a C (maybe even a C++ -- Fianlly, OOP for a calc!!!!) SDK with it because their earlier calcs did. So why not save up for this? ;)
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If Omnimaga becomes more Casio oriented, then I'll get one, that's for sure. :)
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I'm sure it'll adapt to whatever we feel like programming :D
But It'll always be the home of the best TI programs ever I'm sure. People will still own their old TI calcs, so unless they want to forget about them forever, there will still be many projects for those.
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Even if it has no C/ASM I'M still getting one for the sake of collecting different calc models :P
If it has decent BASIC capabilities I might try creating something for it.
I think Omni will remain mostly TI for a while but hopefully some Casio Prizm stuff could attract more people :D
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Video of the Prizm in action, thanks to TI-BANK:
http://casio.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=7
http://tibank.forumactif.com/evenements-f16/la-nouvelle-et-incroyable-casio-t6118-60.htm
Video posted by Critor
Some stuff seems to display a bit slow. I guess that might give us an idea about Casio BASIC speed on it, but hopefully some stuff will be fast enough.
I read on TI-BANK that it might support videos. Porn on a calc... er I mean game cinematic sequences?
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Wait, it's released already?
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Apparently. That looks really cool. The different color functions could come in handy. I do wonder about the programming speed, though.
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Apparently. That looks really cool. The different color functions could come in handy. I do wonder about the programming speed, though.
I wonder about charginthe batteries, though
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Wait, it's released already?
No. I think he found the videos somewhere on Casio website. I will probably go check their site for them and to see if there are more info later.
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Video posted by Critor
Some stuff seems to display a bit slow. I guess that might give us an idea about Casio BASIC speed on it, but hopefully some stuff will be fast enough.
And guess what... I've doubled the framerate! :p
But those captures clearly come from the Prizm "emulation" software, as a mouse pointer is sometimes visible.
Speed on true hardware can be very different: better or worse...
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Oh ok I didn't knew lol.
I am really curious, though. If it's 2x slower but BASIC games runs at something like the 83+SE with decent graphics, it will be perfect for me. However, it will be even better if it runs faster and even better with C/ASM support. I wouldn't be surprised if they released a SDK like with the Classpad. Let's hope they don't go the way TI did...
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I read on TI-BANK that it might support videos. Porn on a calc... er I mean game cinematic sequences?
Rickrolls? :D
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Let's hope they don't go the way TI did...
I'm actually hoping their programming team goes the way of TI and their management doesn't. That OS looks like it could use some serious improvement.
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Nice youtube vid. I'm really impressed so far. I'd like to get one, even though I wouldn't use it from maths. :P
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I wonder if this will have a I/O link port. If so, I wonder if sound would be possible...
I wouldn't use it from maths. :P
Who use calculators for math? ;D
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I wonder if this will have a I/O link port. If so, I wonder if sound would be possible...
I think it has one. However, I'm not sure if it's a port that has the right shape for connecting headphones...
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Well, if it's 2.5 mm we can simply use old Xbox headphones or use a cheap adapter. Of course with USB we can use USB speakers but they are a bit more rare in some areas.
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A prototype has been given to teachers, and some informations have leaked!
http://casio.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=8 (in french)
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A prototype has been given to teachers, and some informations have leaked!
http://casio.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=8 (in french)
Hah, teachers get them faster =P
Google Translate:
The useful part of the screen takes up almost all of the window, minimizing the borders which we were entitled to earlier models.
The screen is backlit, as Graph on 75/95, which provides excellent readability under any lighting conditions from the point of use.
The contrast and brightness of the screen can be adjusted in 5 levels.
There are many support applications / add-in. 3 applications are preinstalled: Geometry, PicturePlot, and Conversion.
No engine computer algebra (CAS), which confirms that the Casio Prizm is designed to compete with TI-Nspire basic, but not the TI-Nspire CAS. However, support for add-in has helped develop and add an engine on Graph 75/85/85SD/95 CAS. All hopes are allowed! If we have an SDK or above, there is no reason that this engine does not see the day soon.
Memory storage has a capacity of 16MB, and comes home with 7MB used or 9MB of free (which is almost the same as last TI-Nspire, which offer more than 12MB of free after installing the latest OS 2.1).
Longer need driver or software for exchanging data with a computer! The Casio Prizm is simply recognized as an external storage device (usb stick, memory card ...). A simple drag and drop the mouse and voila! There were years that he had to fight for transferring data with a calculator, installing software drivers or owners who caused many problems, especially in IT. What we all dreamed for so long, Casio, inventor of the graphic calculator, did it!
The memory data storage are directly visible from the computer, the root of the player creates. The data from main memory (RAM) are in the subfolder @ mainmem.
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Je le veux! Il peut être programmé, oui? Et oui, qui les utilise pour les maths?
I want it! It can be programmed, right? And yes, who uses them for math?
(sorry I'm still learning French)
(désolé, j'apprende le français)
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This is awesome! I'm also very glad there's add-in support and I like how the calc is seen as a USB jumpdrive. I hope it will be possible to write our own add-ins. Are there any talks about a SDK? I did not have time to check Casio-BANK and Casiocalc.org too much.
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Je le veux! Il peut être programmé, oui? Et oui, qui les utilise pour les maths?
I want it! It can be programmed, right? And yes, who uses them for math?
(sorry I'm still learning French)
(désolé, j'apprende le français)
You can even program C, from what I've heard!
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This is awesome! I'm also very glad there's add-in support and I like how the calc is seen as a USB jumpdrive. I hope it will be possible to write our own add-ins. Are there any talks about a SDK?
Casio has promised a SDK.
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This is awesome! I'm also very glad there's add-in support and I like how the calc is seen as a USB jumpdrive. I hope it will be possible to write our own add-ins. Are there any talks about a SDK?
Casio has promised a SDK.
Great, without one we could never program ir successfully
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wow, I bet Casio is learning from our rants to improve on ti's suckatude :D
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wow, I bet Casio is learning from our rants to improve on ti's suckatude :D
Forget about TI spies ... Casio's probably got people here >.>
But C with an SDK on a color calc! Let's see what TI does :D
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Yeah, the new Prism must have troubled TI with all these new features...
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This is awesome! I'm also very glad there's add-in support and I like how the calc is seen as a USB jumpdrive. I hope it will be possible to write our own add-ins. Are there any talks about a SDK?
Casio has promised a SDK.
Great! Since it supports APPS/add-ons (from your Casio-BANK news), I became confident the community would be able to create their own. Hopefully Casio will not require apps to be approved by them. I am sure they won't require that, though.
So far TI didn't do much, though...
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This is awesome! I'm also very glad there's add-in support and I like how the calc is seen as a USB jumpdrive. I hope it will be possible to write our own add-ins. Are there any talks about a SDK?
Casio has promised a SDK.
Good, that's the deciding factor between me buying a Prizm and an Nspire.
As for TI, they just purchased the rights to a new ARM processor. It's currently slated for mobile devices, so I'm hoping to see it appear within the next 5 or so years.
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I wonder if this will have a I/O link port. If so, I wonder if sound would be possible...
I wouldn't use it from maths. :P
Who use calculators for math? ;D
I dunno, there are some strange people in the world ;D
I'm totally getting one of these suckers as soon as we have more info on programability.
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I dunno, there are some strange people in the world ;D
Or so TI thinks :D
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Yeah, I am tempted to send an email to TI saying how much I rather hae a prizm tha a nspire because of an SDK
The prizm has an SDK [/random]
btw, I thought that it is a GRAPHING not a GRAPHIC calculator ::)
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This is because Casio calls their calc graphic calculators instead of graphing. In french, it's graphic for both brands of calculators. Initially, when I first heard of TI graphing calculators it sounded kinda weird.
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Ah, ok, I didnt know that, nvm then