Omnimaga
Omnimaga => News => Topic started by: DJ Omnimaga on February 15, 2013, 01:11:15 am
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Tonight, TI-Planet has posted a lot of new pictures of the TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/album.php?album_id=144&sk=t&sd=d&st=0), as Critor obtained one from TI (http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=135770#p135770) to try it. He took several pictures as he handled and tested it, allowing more interesting discoveries, particularly on the TI-BASIC programming side!
First of all, however, let's start by showing how this new machine look like from the outside (and what is that light on the calc side in the 3rd pic?)...
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=thumbnail&image_id=1991) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=1991) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=thumbnail&image_id=1990) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=1990) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=thumbnail&album_id=144&image_id=2031) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=2031) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=thumbnail&image_id=2065) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=2065) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=thumbnail&image_id=2062) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=2062)
...and now the inside!
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=144&image_id=2062) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=2062)
Hopefully our hardware experts in the community can enlighten us more on what the above contains and if there are any bizzare things in there. However, for now we will focus on the high-level programming portion of this invasion of new images (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/album.php?album_id=144&sk=t&sd=d&st=0)!
The calculator now includes extra commands for the use of colors, while of course requiring some adjustments for ones made for older models due to smaller resolution and lower RAM. The colors appears to offer much more freedom than on the Casio CFX-9850G and FX-cg10/20 series. Since all that was posted at the time of this news post were pictures, we could not discover the speed of Line(), Pixel-On/Off/Change() and Text() commands and thus, were unable to know how they compare with the Casio PRIZM (on which they are atrociously slow), the TI-83 Plus and the TI-84 Plus. We also could not see if Pxl-Test() still exists, if the undocumented Text(-1,X,Y,Str) and Circle(X,Y,R,ComplexList) tricks still worked and if community tricks like Text sprites and dual-layer ASCII will still work.
The great news for TI-BASIC programmers is that colors can finally be used inside programs as well, not just via the DRAW tools on the graph screen!
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=144&image_id=2023) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=2023)
At first, I was disappointed to see that the calculator has a token per color which were used with the new TextColor() command as argument. On this PRIZM this was the case too and this pose problem in TI-BASIC programming, because it forces you to use spaghetti or overly repetitive code in many cases, due to the inability to store the color inside a real variable. However, as you see below, the variable K is used as the argument in another program, meaning that it is possible to use colors more dynamically in TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition programs!
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=144&image_id=1989) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=1989) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=144&image_id=1988) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=1988)
Basically, it seems that each color got its own ID too, as seen in the image below! The color IDs are as follow: Blue 10, Red 11, Black 12, Magenta 13, Green 14, Orange 15, Brown 16, Navy 17, LtBlue 18, Yellow 19, White 20, LtGray 21, MedGray 22, Gray 23, DarkGray 24
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=144&image_id=2006) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=2006)
Of course, due to the larger screen, you will need to adapt your graphical programs and games, because everything might be out of place. Lines might be safe, but they'll not be as thick.
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=144&image_id=2043) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=2043)
There also appears to be some loss in speed. Some people reported that graphing is 1.5 times slower than on a TI-84 Plus, but 1.5 times faster than on a TI-83 Plus. The following home screen program appears to run 4 times slower, but if it's due to screen updating, then it might not be as bad for programs that don't need to draw as often to the LCD:
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=144&image_id=1975) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=1975)
For the ASM programmers who prefer to program using hexadecimal directly on the calculator, the calculator still includes Asm() and AsmComp(), but the AsmPrgm command was renamed to Asm84CPrgm:
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=144&image_id=2014) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?image_id=2014)
In addition to that, as seen in the previous news, the background pictures, which appears to be 21 KB in size on the calculator, appears to be pixelated and scaled up by 200%. We do not know if this is the case on the calculator or if it's due to SmartView emulation, but this might compromise their use for complex title screens and graphics. On the other hand, we have yet to discover if regular pictures can still be created, if they take the entire graphing resolution instead of being scaled up and if they are much smaller. Also we have to remember that the calculator only has 21.6 KB of RAM, meaning that a port of XCOPY to copy archived programs to RAM will be a must for large games.
While there are some downsides, the new TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition BASIC language definitively offers more freedom than its 84 Plus counterpart and we hope to see new Omnimaga programs using its full potential in the future! (http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/84pcseploticondude.png)
TI-Planet news can be found here:
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11266&lang=en
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11268&lang=en
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The flash chip, as I predicted, is simply the 4 MB version of the same series of chips that are used on the TI-84+(SE) and TI-83+(SE). In fact, it's compatible with the TI-89T chip. Like the TI-89T, it features 63 x 64 K main sectors + 8 x 8 K boot sector. (The boot sector arrangement is unlike the TI-83+ series, and is the same as on the TI-89T. Specifically, the TI-83+ series used 1 x 16 K + 2 x 8 K + 1 x 32 K.) It also has 1 x 64 K "security sector", which can be factory-locked, or locked by the end user. Either way, once locked, the data in the security sector is forever fixed. Conversely, if left unlock, the security sector can be used as an extra 64 K generic data sector. The command set for the new flash is the same for basic operation. There are new commands for accessing and using the security sector. (Also, there is no "unlock bypass" feature.)
Calc84 also points out:
(2:06:48 AM) calc84: also there seems to be a 48MHz clock in there, but we don't know how it's divided :P
(2:06:58 AM) calc84: could be the CPU is 16MHz
(2:07:25 AM) calc84: the USB needs a 12MHz, or so I hear
(2:08:25 AM) calc84: I will be thrilled if they managed to clock the CPU to 24MHz
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Wow, cool stuff. I can't wait to get home and view the pictures in better detail. :)
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But does it run a z80?
Also, are you saying there only fits one picture at a time on the calc?
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Most likely, the image files can only be stored in the archive, and are streamed directly from the archive for display. (Doing this is relatively easy for assembly programmers; in fact, it's documented in TI's SDK for the original TI-83+.) A full-resolution, uncompressed image would be larger than 64 K; files in the archive cannot exceed 64 K for technical reasons. (Mainly that TI is lazy.)
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Pictures vars are archived automatically upon creation, yes.
DJ_O, could you please duplicate the 1st TI-Planet news link with in source or reference section at the end of your news?
Could you please add a link to the 2nd TI-Planet news about the TI-84C hardware too?
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11268
Both content are going to be available in english soon.
In this latest news, you got the answer to your questions about the hardware.
Very goog news: TI didn't use a new ASIC, but the old TA3 ASIC from TI-84 Plus hardware revision G and older! :D
Meaning that the 128KB RAM are back at last! :D
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The first TI-Planet news item has been translated to English: http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11266&lang=en .
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Same for the second one : http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11268&lang=en
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To out knowledge, the memory mapper on the old "TA3"-type ASICs does not support mapping 4 MB of flash. It used a 7-bit page + 14-bit address scheme. It might be based on the older design, but some modification is definitely required to support the extra flash memory, unless one of those unknown ports enables a heretofore secret 4-MB chip mode. (There is speculation that port 0E and 0F are related to swapping with ports 6 and 7.) Out best guess is they made the page selector 8-bit, removing the ability to map RAM into any area that can map flash, and vice versa. I do hope you're right about the RAM coming back, and hopefully they made CPU speeds 2 and 3 faster. Also, if they were as lazy as we like to think they are, the boot sector unlock feature is still there, which would be great.
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Wait, so are the color names tokens, or are multiple-letter variable names supported?
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If the 128KB of RAM is back then might that be an indication that they are using some of it as a screen buffer? That would be nice :).
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Like, for storing backups for the graphscreen, basically?
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Pictures vars are archived automatically upon creation, yes.
DJ_O, could you please duplicate the 1st TI-Planet news link with in source or reference section at the end of your news?
Could you please add a link to the 2nd TI-Planet news about the TI-84C hardware too?
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11268
Both content are going to be available in english soon.
In this latest news, you got the answer to your questions about the hardware.
Very goog news: TI didn't use a new ASIC, but the old TA3 ASIC from TI-84 Plus hardware revision G and older! :D
Meaning that the 128KB RAM are back at last! :D
Wouldn't it be better at this point to just copy the news (as soon as available in English) over here and put a link to TI-Planet like usual? (Unless this is what you mean? In such case maybe it might be better if you post it since you wrote all of it yourself). I'M confused about what you mean (since there was already a link to the 1st news)???
But does it run a z80?
Also, are you saying there only fits one picture at a time on the calc?
10 pictures actually. As for images (which are different), you can have 10 too, but I don't know if you can remove the 5 pre-loaded ones.
Wait, so are the color names tokens, or are multiple-letter variable names supported?
They're single letter variables but I think there are all-caps tokens for each color too.
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Nice pictures, that sure are many.
Maybe i'll get one, depending on the price.....
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/me wants
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Do we have any information at all on the actual power of this thing?
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Not any official info, but from some posts, it appears that the calculator might have a 48 MHz processor that is clocked down to something else, while others state it might have a 15 MHz one.
It seems that the 128KB RAM that allowed programs like RealSound, Omnicalc VirtualCalc and early versions of TI-Boy SE is back, though.
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It seems that the 128KB RAM that allowed programs like RealSound, Omnicalc VirtualCalc and early versions of TI-Boy SE is back, though.
And that is one of the features I miss in my 84+, only that may get me into buying one of those......
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I bet the OS stores a (probably compressed to 8-bit color) copy of the graph screen into the extra RAM, because when drawing to the graph screen, it remembers what you put there after switching to a different screen.
(Special thanks to critor and KermM for these pictures.)
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Does kerm already have one of those too O.O
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Interesting, and I assume that KermM has it too as well? Darn lol I can't wait to get one myself to try it. I hope that it comes out early online and that they ship to Canada fast.
Also that orange thing is intriguing... Horizontal appears to let you draw patterns or something O.O
Also, only background images can be 16 bit I think (the ones that seems 133x83 scaled up 2x). The rest seems to be limited to 16 colors. (meaning 4 bits). The extra RAM would make sense then.
EDIT: Kinda ironic that they added so many gray colors. It's like if they thought we might still prefer making grayscale games or maybe they thought that someone would try making a 8xp/8xk emulator at some point to emulate old games grayscale :P
(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/84colors.png)
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I found a new bug! :P
(http://i72.servimg.com/u/f72/13/23/13/53/menuc10.png)
(http://i72.servimg.com/u/f72/13/23/13/53/menup10.png)
(http://i72.servimg.com/u/f72/13/23/13/53/menum10.png)
Source:
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11281
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I bet the OS stores a (probably compressed to 8-bit color) copy of the graph screen into the extra RAM, because when drawing to the graph screen, it remembers what you put there after switching to a different screen.
(Special thanks to critor and KermM for these pictures.)
Not 4-bit? You can only draw with 15 colors, you know.
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Don't forget the background image, which can be in full-color.
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The OS probably doesn't store that in picvars. My guess is it's loaded in with a separate routine through the driver chip.
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Wait critor is that really a bug for real? O.O
Also two videos of the calc in action were posted today, showing Output/Disp speed.
Mana Force in the first video (which runs at 83+ speed it seems, except the battle intro transition which is quite slower). Initially, Phero was supposed to try Illusiat 6, but the game won't send because it uses 83+ pics:
However, its speed might be due to how poorly coded it is (I think everything non-screen-related is at the exact same speed as the 84+)
Kerm has tried Output yesterday and he can run 1000 Output() commands in 14 seconds, while on the 84+SE he gets 7.2 (both with MathPrint turned OFF). However, if you Output large strings of characters such as in the following video or if you scroll the screen with Disp, get ready for a major slowdown.
Basically, outputing small characters like ASCII sprites moving around shall be perfectly fine, but scrolling and other things that updates the entire screen in 1 command like in Pokémon Purple will be too slow for real time stuff.
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Maybe they should have implemented a disp buffer, like Linux uses. It stores all the console output and displays it as fast as possible, but the program continues running, ignoring whether it has actually displayed.
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Hm. Perhaps there would be a way for ASM programs to implement this?
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It would require a fairly substantial change to how the putS bcall operates, and it would probably take an interrupt.
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Maybe they should have implemented a disp buffer, like Linux uses. It stores all the console output and displays it as fast as possible, but the program continues running, ignoring whether it has actually displayed.
Ah so that's what a buffer does. I still can't believe that TI would reduce the speed but upgrade the screen.
This seems to be aimed at the new student that know nothing about calculators but want the one that looks the coolest/ prettiest.
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Maybe they should have implemented a disp buffer, like Linux uses. It stores all the console output and displays it as fast as possible, but the program continues running, ignoring whether it has actually displayed.
Ah so that's what a buffer does. I still can't believe that TI would reduce the speed but upgrade the screen.
This seems to be aimed at the new student that know nothing about calculators but want the one that looks the coolest/ prettiest.
_Nicco_, TI didn't exactly reduce the speed. They shipped it with the same processor and RAM as the G hardware 84SEs, but with a screen that takes ten times as long to update.
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Ooh, not that we could implement this or anything, but what if they just subdivided the screen into 16 chunks, 4800 bytes each, and allowed you to page each chunk of the screen individually? The screen hardware would continuously update from the buffers not currently paged, and you can write to them as fast as to any other RAM.
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The new calc was definitively just to increase sales by attracting students and parents with the color gimmick. Granted, it's much easier to read such screen than the old one and you can now program in the dark (I don't recommend it, to avoid damaging your eyes, but in case power goes out or something it can be pretty handy).
They did not decide to slow it down with a slower processor, but rather didn't want to improve its hardware speed, so as a ticalc comment says, you get the same speed for computing, but the larger screen is a bottleneck.
Ooh, not that we could implement this or anything, but what if they just subdivided the screen into 16 chunks, 4800 bytes each, and allowed you to page each chunk of the screen individually? The screen hardware would continuously update from the buffers not currently paged, and you can write to them as fast as to any other RAM.
It might probably require heavy modifying of their OS, which I doubt they would want to do unless the calc received a lot of poor reviews and negative criticism due to its slow screen. Just the scrolling in the PRGM editor will be a nightmare if you Goto in a 15 KB large program. Using many sub-programs (or Doors CS 8 instant Goto feature) will be a must.
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I don't think that they will get a bad review as many customers already think that a lot of stuff we make is impossible on the normal 84+ as it is just a calculator.
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The thing is that according to stuff I have read, the speed actually impacts school-related calculator uses too:
1) When typing stuff on the home screen, it's apparently slightly sluggish, like on the PRIZM. While this isn't necessarily an issue, it can be a tad annoying for those who type fast when they type equations and stuff
2) Vertical scrolling is slow. Horizontal will be fine for games, but the problem is that when you enter calculations or navigate menus, Y= and PRGM, it scrolls at about 4-5 FPS. Imagine if someone decides to make a 1 KB large math program and he has to Goto the end of the code: It will scroll all the way through the code, 4-5 lines a second instead of about 20. Scrolling through menus, such as the CATALOG or the MATH ones will be a nightmare.
Basically, this might annoy students in class as well (which is why I hope that TI adress this at one point). Would there be a way for TI to add vertical z-addressing back without radical hardware changes? That would solve the problem.
EDIT: I found this pic in TI's PDF files:
(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/homescreenbgcolor.png)
So some color might be possible on the home screen after all. Just not via pure BASIC.
Programming-wise, we have seen nothing, though. To judge the true calc speed we will have to wait until we see game demos running on it. Also, although I am disappointed at the slower speed, I think this might be a good thing to a certain extent: The arrival of the 84+ resulted in an invasion of totally unoptimized BASIC games, because it ran at 15 MHz instead of 6, so people spent less time optimizing, since now their games just ran fast enough. I remember trying many RPGs in the past that ran at 4 FPS, yet they were as limited as Illusiat 6 (which runs at 11 FPS). In other words, maybe this calc will do like the TI-82 and 83+ and encourage newer BASIC programmers to try coding properly again :P.
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Basically, this might annoy students in class as well (which is why I hope that TI adress this at one point). Would there be a way for TI to add vertical z-addressing back without radical hardware changes? That would solve the problem.
TI's software has never, ever used Z-addressing. For that matter, very few assembly programs use it. Not only could TI not add such a feature, they wouldn't use it if they could.
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Mhmm, color on the home screen would be nice, i bet there will be some awesome asm libs for basic...... :D
Maybe the asm programmers should get togeather and agree on tokens so that it doesn't happen like xlib and omnicalc using real(
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I'm sure this has come up at some point already, but with some hardcore zStart-style mods/hacks could syntax highlighting in the program editor (or even the homescreen) be possible? Even if it's not live it would still help quite a bit for debugging and such.
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wouldn't zstart need to write extra-tokens into the program then? or just create an appvar of where what highlighting is in which program?
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We could do it dynamically.
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I'm not sure exactly how it works, but pretty sure it would just be something that looks at newly-visible/recently-edited code and just displays it differently.
Ofc how to integrate something that intense into the program editor when something as simple as instant goto is a challenge would be interesting to see :P
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Basically, this might annoy students in class as well (which is why I hope that TI adress this at one point). Would there be a way for TI to add vertical z-addressing back without radical hardware changes? That would solve the problem.
TI's software has never, ever used Z-addressing. For that matter, very few assembly programs use it. Not only could TI not add such a feature, they wouldn't use it if they could.
Well I meant adding it in the hardware. The TI-84 Plus supports z-adress, as demonstrated in Reuben Quest series (earthquake sequences), but I know very well that the TI-OS doesn't use it. I meant if they ever decided to re-add that feature on the 84+CSE, maybe they might take advantage of it eventually, but that would require the TI community (such as those under NDA) to tell TI how to do it.
(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/shiftzadress.gif)
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It would have to be a little more advanced than that, though, because of the status bar. Actually, if the LCD wasn't rotated 90 degrees, that might be possible, because the controller supports "Partial Image Display" that displays a certain part of the LCD RAM on a specified number of scanlines. But since our scanlines are vertical, that doesn't help very much.
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Actually Kerm says that adding a feature to DCS to remove scrolling completely from the PRGM editor would be impossible, so I think a new editor might need to be written.
Another solution is that Critor, Kerm and various community members send the suggestion to TI to remove gradual scrolling due to being useless and just slowing down program editing.
It would have to be a little more advanced than that, though, because of the status bar. Actually, if the LCD wasn't rotated 90 degrees, that might be possible, because the controller supports "Partial Image Display" that displays a certain part of the LCD RAM on a specified number of scanlines. But since our scanlines are vertical, that doesn't help very much.
In TI-BASIC I think there would definitively be issues with the status bar. However in ASM it wouldn't be an issue since the bar can be erased.