ah, but the thing is that the entire discussion on cemetech was actually a peacefull discussion with each side giving their side of the story and everyone respecting each other's decision. I would think the topic on cemetech was not peaceful and was a bunch of snobs bashing axe if I only had read this topic.

/opinion

One issue is how years ago there were many anti-BASIC discussions elsewhere and in some cases they were intended to single out BASIC programmers and when I read Ashbad's quoted IRC post in the topic, I felt Axe programmers were being singled out as community figures or treated as inferior beings. Axe vs ASM did not happen as much as BASIC vs ASM so far but I feared it might go too far, hence why I did some sort of wake up call with my thread to share my opinion and past experiences, in case some people later end up simply splitting the community in half again, turning non-Axe and Axe users into two enemy clans or something.

Also because of past bad experiences, it's hard to make the difference between some comments that are intentionally offensive and not, and since I like Axe and a lot of good Axe programmers frequents Omni (and some Cemetech), my initial reaction was the same as with BASIC coders: defend them and the language.

In no way I meant to start any fight. If anything, what I thought is that it was you and tifreak who were trying to start one, which I hope is not the case. In the past, I've blown up a lot and when I endured enough, I end up ragequitting. After reading your post, I wondered if it wasn't what you attempted to cause too.

Also to be honest, if the topic on Cemetech is in no way bad including Ashbad's first quote, I do not see how we shouldn't be allowed to do the same with Doors CS7 (although I don't see the point, considering it's another pretty solid programming tool and I've been fighting to convert Ion/Mirage users I find to DCS). After all, the comments saying most people treat Axe coders as uber haxors and most axe coders use Axe as a crutch were posted in their back too, sort of. I'm not saying Omnimaga should encourage language debates, but rather the fact that if some people feel attacked, it's obvious you will see some similar reactions. I'm glad both topics remained civil in general, though, which is why before initially posting it, I tried to make sure I am calm enough (although it seems it was still seen as some sort of overeaction by a few people).

DJ, I wasn't attempting to start any fights. I was pointing out that it looked as if you were trying to say Cemetech and Kerm were bad for starting up a debate on the usefulness of Axe. That is what I was pointing out. Even if you didn't intend to make the post like that, it looks like an indirect bash at Cemetech, and that was rather unfair in my eyes. So long as you are not bashing, then there is no problem.

lkj, if you read the thread in question, you'll see that no one was claiming either that only ASM programmers are good, or that Axe programmers are bad programmers.  Instead, the main point that everyone, Cemetech regulars and Omnimaga regulars alike, respectfully and amicably agreed upon, was that it behooves programmers to pick the correct language for what they're trying to make.  Clearly BASIC is not good for trying to make complex grayscale games, ASM is not good for writing floating-point math programs, and Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.  I strongly invite you to read through the thread in question on Cemetech from beginning to end and see if your opinion of it changes.  I caution you not to accept someone else's characterization without freely deciding for yourself.

Omnimaga is, in one way, Axe's home, and the same way, Cemetech is DoorsCS' home.
On Cemetech, you criticized Axe.
On Omnimaga, I said that some of your critics could apply to DoorsCS.
So we basically did the same thing.

One of the misunderstandings here is that the cultures on Cemetech and Omnimaga are quite different.  On Omnimaga, bashing is forbidden, so people tend to compliment projects and offer only positive suggestions regardless of the project and author, which is fine, that's the type of community (well, except for years of threads like this criticizing me, Cemetech, and Cemetech's members ). I feel that a lot of that tradition comes from the general audience of Omnimaga, who tend to be younger, generally high school age or below, and who perhaps need those sort of rules in place to maintain harmony, which seems successful, again with the exception of threads like this one.  Cemetech, on the other hand, tries to promote more open discussion, including, where appropriate, criticisms.  We especially like people to speak their minds, develop their own opinions, and think for themselves.  Fittingly, the Cemetech crowd tends to be older programmers, from high school through college through professionals; I myself am a PhD student, as you may or may not know.  When we see a programmer attempting a project that may be outside the scope of his skill or patience, we try to gently push him or her towards a project that may be better suited to his or her current abilities, and will thus give him more experience to later tackle his original project and be more likely to succeed with it.  We have found that this is a very effective approach in the past, and even though people may balk at it at first, they almost universally look back on the experience later and thank us for helping them maintain a realistic view.  Needless to say, it takes a more mature individual, for better or worse, to interpret negative feedback as constructive rather than seeing it as outright criticism or insulting.  That's not to say one shouldn't respond in kind to outright insults, but one gains a certain understanding that some criticisms are intended in the best interest of the programmer in question.  At Cemetech, I try to encourage everyone to think for themselves and form their own opinions, even if they may offend me or each other, because they're just opinions, and everyone is welcome to their own.  Hence, if I say "I feel ____ about Axe", that's my prerogative, and it's up to the other members of the community to either agree or disagree, which they're equally welcome to.  Throughout the course of a discussion or debate, people's opinions may be affected, but if at the end of the debate everyone does not agree, that's fine.  Therefore, the difference between your post and mine was that I openly discussed my particular opinions, and invited people to respond with their own opinions.  I didn't insult any specific language or any specific programmers; the only individual that I singled out, Quigibo, was in a positive light, to complement his programming.  I felt that your characterization of one specific project, though it would have been welcome in a post at Cemetech where I could respond to your concerns and either contradict them or agree that Doors CS had those shortcomings, was instead intended as a hurtful response, even though it was hopefully in the heat of the moment, and was contrary to Omnimaga's anti-bashing rules.  To conclude, I feel that over and over in the past 9 years, the rules of Omnimaga (for example, no "bashing") have been attempted to be applied to the community at large (for example, criticizing people and sites for what they say on Cemetech, Revsoft, TIFreakware, MaxCoderz, TI-News.net, and ticalc.org, among others), and that this thread is a good example of that mistake.  Unfortunately, many such as lkj are inclined to agree with the original poster, even if they may not have gotten a chance to form their own independent opinions.

Wow.... did I really cause all of this? O_O I apologize - I'm terribly sorry for all this happening, even if I caused it indirectly.

Well, let's explain my comment above:
This all started with a debate on IRC (specifically, #cemetech), with a discussion on Axe's problems. After I defended Axe a bit, a few friends came over to work on a collab AP English project. After coming back to see the highlight, I suggested that this be made into a topic:
17:52 < alberthro> KermM_, post a topic about the stuffs we talked about today and I might reply :) I'm busy with a collab project atm, so...
A few hours later, the topic was made. I thought it would be a good chance to fight on the Axe sides of things and have it stick (found here). I did not realize that it would explode into community bashing, which was not supposed to be the case.

The good thing that has come out of this is that the Axe side (kinda) won, and that the topic of Axe vs. ASM is (finally?) done and dead. If anyone still has an issue to take up with Axe, that particular thread should be read.

Again, I would like to apologize for my actions. I did not anticipate this topic to become a full out flame war, and should have had the foresight to see that occur.

The topic itself does not, and should not, have any community bashing. (The IRC chat, however, did - one user in particular who I will not name.) There is one reply to that Cemetech topic that is borderline, but I will leave it to you guys to find such person.

If KermM permits, I can post the full IRC logs from that incident/debate. (I have a VPS that does some pretty nice logging, so...)

EDIT: Reviewing the logs from before, before I joined, that particular person was on a full out rampage against Axe and this community... I think the issue should be settled once the logs are released. I've already dumped out the portion of the IRC log that relates to this incident - I just need the OK.

yeah, I think we all just need to kinda...chill out. Peace, brothers. Haters will hate, whatever, Axe/BASIC/ASM programmers will program their fav language, regardless of if you show them a rock solid argument for why you think it's not as classy or elegant or blah as another language. I guess it's more about yourself, how you choose to react to things. IMO, language debates never really create anything but contention, not because people say mean things, but because people over react...anyways.

Starcraft II is far more superior to calcs and everyone should play as Zerg because Terran is OP. j/k

lol

Quote from: KermMartian on November 15, 2011, 01:01:59 pm

Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.

Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.

Go for it. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Also, since it's much easier to hate people you don't know personally and imagine malice that they don't feel, I encourage you all to join the 58th weekly Have Calc, Will Program session Wednesday evening at 8pm Eastern time and chat with us in person; as usual we'll be discussing programming help, anyone's recent projects, and continuing to enliven the community.   I certainly would be happy to talk to anyone who has possible misconceptions about anything.

I did too but it died very early and sircmpwn managed to create a command line from which you can run no-shell programs.